Planetouched DM vote result

[fluffmonster]

I would have preferred to have planetouched available, but like Mord said you have to let the DMs run the game. It just doesn't work well any other way. They don't really need to have pounded through the logic or reasoning of what they want, preferences are preferences. It just doesn't seem worth getting into a big fight over. I get great game by having decent relationships with DMs and accepting the hierarchy built into the game. If the DM says no to planetouched races, arguing about it only poisons the relationship and in essence would make me a "problem player". We've got to all remember, its not just about the logic of rules, its about the relationships.

[Mayhem]

or does the minority decide?

When that minority consists of the people who are actively working towards giving us NWN2 ALFA, then heck yes, let them decide.

After all, its not an exclusive minority. Anyone can join.

If you feel strongly about ALFA making a good showing in NWN2, you ought to join that minority, rather (and this is not targeted at you, witch)than sitting on your ass and whining that the people who are actually doing something are not doing it the way you personally want them to.

(Its the Starship Troopers method - you want the vote, join the service

)

[Lusipher]

Now, I consider myself to be as accomodating for player needs as I possibly can. I hate Drow, but read my drow thread. And Danubus, when you wanted a place for your Tiamet crew, I spent a month building one on Daggerford working out all the secret areas, tunnels and hideouts, but you couldn't wait a month for an extremely busy HDM who had 20+ players on his server most nights and half a dozen requests to fill. After all that work and scripting.

Yeah, Rick. I would have liked to stuck around and played. Our entire Crew pretty much disbanded that came to the server. People had tons of RL stuff going on, I was playing WoW again, and a lot of folks werent real thrilled with how Red was trying to DM our group. I had quit ALFA altogether after that for a year. So, Im sorry we didnt get to see your areas you built for us. It was just bad timing for everyone.

[JaydeMoon]

Yes. We should listen to the opinions of what races to include from someone who plays WoW and every other MMORPG that comes across the table. And who has, as you can tell by his still ascending post count, 'quit ALFA altogether'.



I poke.

"En guarde!"

[Inaubryn]

Let's see, I have the Silver Marches book in front of me .... descended from fiendish blood, well, hell, no Silverymoon for you, it's warded, but, oh wait, no, the they want to be a Tiefling because the DM has to let him play what they want. Oh well, no wards for Silverymoon, then. What other canon can I break?

Well, let's see: Genasi, I searched the entire Silver Marches, nope, no mention of them. Let's try tiefling, nope, not there either. Well, hell, but I am a DM, I have to improvise. Make it up.

Oh look, a Fey'ri walks into Sundabar. Hey, Elven Demonspawn, hey buddy, have a dwarven ale, nice demonic facial features, BTW.

Oh look Frank, an Aasimar just walked into town, all glowing and sh*t, flapping his wings. Geez, Frank the level 10 Paladin of Tyr, I've never seen you grovel and kneel so much before a level 1 Aasimar straight from Tyr himself.

You know, if DM's have issues, it's not because they are control freak assholes. It is because we have canon to follow, and it is difficult to implement sometimes with a DM cleint, CRPG limitations, and players that expect ALL YOUR ATTENTION right now.

Gonna have to throw a correction at ya, Rick. The wards of Silverymoon wouldn't prevent a tiefling from entering. The antipathy spell wards off all evil-aligned: demons, devils, dragons, drow, duergar, giants, goblinoids, mind flayers, orcs and trolls. Tieflings are not demons nor are they half-fiend so they wouldn't have an aversion to the ward like true demons or half-blood demon/devils. So, canon doesn't hold up there.

As I said before... ALFA is quite inconsistent with its decisions. The DMs and Admin know that there's no way in hell you're gettin' drow outta the game w/o losin' a lotta interest in ALFA. But, they know that planetouched were never in and they can say, well, if I vote against this, I won't have to deal with those at least.

And, to any DM that says that it would be more work to include planetouched... show me. Show me how it would be more work. And, I'll say you have a leg down because you don't have any evidence to prove that it would be. Since planetouched have never been played in ALFA, you all have absolutely no basis for your decision, except, I don't want 'em.

So, I challenge any DM here that doesn't want to include planetouched to show me how they will be more work/trouble. Go!

Edit: Seriously, for a bunch of nerds that argue logic and empirical evidence all the damn time, I can see you only argue that when it's convenient for you. Here, you have decided to go against something without any evidence whatsoever. I find that strangely ironic. Ah well.

[Mikayla]

Swift:

You are surprised by this?

I do not recall indicating I was surprised. Dissappointed, perhaps, but not surprised. Sometimes ALFA does things I love, sometimes it does things I do not love. None of us get "our way" all the time, not even those as glamorous, intelligent, charismatic and manipulative as me.

ALFA is like any other community in the world - its made of people and each person has their own perspective. This means we are not all going to agree and from time to time each of us is going to have to live with community decisions that go against what we desire, at least if we wish to remain a part of the community. There are folks in ALFA who wish drow were not a playable character race, and with some regularity, they attack that availability - but for the last 5 years, they have lost. So, they have to either live with the availability of drow, or move on to some place like Toril, or LoG. If they ever win, well, for me, that will be intolerable and though I would hate to leave ALFA, if ALFA no longers allows drow, then I have to go someplace else (so, to those who do not like me - there is your blueprint for action - have at it).

And everytime we make a decision like this, we may gain or lose some people - there are, or rather were, DMs in ALFA who have left because the rules about DM behavior kept piling up and they no longer felt free to actually be DMs. On the other hand, there are folks who think the rules are great.

What is important here is not the individual decision, but how that decision is made. If one person, regardless of their elected office, is making the decision, then it is not really a community decision and we are thrust back into a community more akin to pre-quake ALFA. Here, however, it was not one person, and not even just 16 or so DMs - the elected Admin agreed on a process by which the decision would be made (though admittedly, some Admin expressed reservations until the votes came in and to their credit, have not argued that the vote is binding). Then the DMs made the decision.

Does this mean that roughly 20 people are making a decision for rougly 200 others? Yes. But in this case the argument is that those 20 people will carry a disproportionate burden of the load should we include Planetouched races. Personally, I find the argument unpersuasive, but, in the interest of settling the issue and in the interest of finding a process by which the community, not one individual, settles the issue, I agreed to the process.

So, this is the decision that ALFA has made. Is it permanent? Not likely - every 6 months to a year I have to defend the availability of drow as a player-character race from folks trying to get it removed. Despite ALFA's long stand on the subject, people still feel free to raise the issue and debate it - so, I imagine, people will go on raising and debating the issue of planetouched races in the future too - after all, as I pointed out previously, 7-8 months ago planetouched were "in" but now they are not. Obviously, no decision, even of the Admin, is permanent (save for the Pillars of ALFA, which is precisely why they were seperated from everything else).

[JaydeMoon]

Re: Inaub's Challenge

I'll start with:

Most encounters will, at the outset, focus on the planetouched PCs 'alien' look. As an immersive DM, I refuse to just let the PCs slide through without realistic reactions from the NPCs.

RPing several minutes or more of reactions to planetouched is going to slow my plots down, the other PCs gotta go through the same spiel again and again.

I know how folks are gonna react to elves, I don't know how they are gonna react to planetouched humans. I have to put more thought and effort into mostly inconsequential interactions (inconsequential for my plot, great for the singular planetouched PC) that don't forward my overall plotline.

Now this example only touches on the Live DMing aspect of it. Builders never had to worry about scripting different conversation scripts for Drow because they were KOS for a long time, as they are on most servers. But planetouched may not be KOS, but will certainly elicit different responses from innkeepers and storeowners. Sure we could just toss that for simplicity... but then we're cheating those planetouched players we so much want to accomodate.

Everyone keeps comparing Drow and Genasi, but it's apples and oranges. #1 Drow had a dedicated server. #2 On non-dedicated servers, they had a real hard time surviving or they cloaked themselves in secrecy.

Planetouched won't have a dedicated server. Planetouched are not reviled to the point they need to shroud themselves in secrecy, but are different enough they'll garner a different reaction than an elf or a dwarf would. Different plane-touched would elicit different responses.

Also, Inaub, your statement correcting Rick only further proves his point: that he just doesn't know enough about planetouched to properly incorporate them into his DMing.

-----------

Now you can come back and point out how weak those examples are. Hell, except for the building part, of which I'm mostly ignorant, the rest isn't really that hard for me to deal with. Which is probably why I voted yes to adding them. But other DMs may think that's too much to have to deal with and thus voted no.

[Inaubryn]

Actually, Jayde, those are the exact arguments I'm lookin' for. I could spend time sayin' how weak they are from a DM perspective, but I won't. Been there done that. I proposed two solutions in lieu of banning planetouched on a the whim of the few.


One was to simply include them and let DMs decide whether they wish to DM any planetouched PCs or not and inform players up front if they weren't going to.

The other was to include them in ALFA's beta phase and see how they actually work in a real world situation. That way people could actually see how much trouble they would or would not be as opposed to just guessing.

Alas, I suppose this will be a new trend around here. We now operate on guess work as opposed to any kinda evidence or fact. Well, Mikayla, I guess it's acceptable to throw out the whole Player review process and just guess at what happened, or would have happened, and make a decision.

[JaydeMoon]

So, your rebuttal to those statements is, in effect, calling the half of the DM Corps that don't want to deal with it ignorant and lazy because they aren't willing to put in the same time and effort that you are in order to incorporate something like plane-touched seamlessly into the game?

Solution 1 is not a viable solution, for me, in a persistant world.

Solution 2 has a lot of merit. One of those "can't hurt to try" type solutions.

As an aside, it's funny how a lot of the servers which are touted as being great and have incorporated plane-touched have also incorporated allowing kobolds and goblins as player-races. And ogres. And orcs. And werewolves. Any sort of immersion in that regard has pretty much been subsumed by general acceptance. I played on Avlis for a short stint. FI and I were given no small amount of OOC grief for ICly treating goblin and kobold PCs poorly, refusing to adventure with them and wondering why the hell everyone else wasn't killing them.

Not trying to compare planetouched to monsters races in regards to their suitability as PC races... just trying to point out that Avlis (and many other PWs) and ALFA have VERY different stances on just about EVERYTHING that makes ALFA what it is.

[Mikayla]

I understand you do not like the decision Inny, but um, what "Player review process" are you talking about? We do not have a player review process. Indeed, what ALFA is sorely lacking is any real rule-making process at all - we do not have a "legislative" process - we could not do an ALFA version of Schoolhouse Rock's "I'm Just A Bill." There is no codified process, simple or not simple. There is just a grant of authority to the Admin. For the most part, the Admin make decision by sphere of authority, or by concensus, or occasionally, by vote. This time, we (collectively) decided to go with Rotku's proposed process. But there is no formal "player review process" - Rotku's process incorporated a player poll, but to get to that player poll, 50% +1 of the DMs had to vote infavor of including the planetouched. And they didn't. So, no player poll.

Of course, post vote, the question was raised about the nature of Rotku's process, whether it was binding or not, etc. However, from my reading of Rotku's process it appears the process was mandatory and binding - Rotku stated at the end that if the votes were not there, ALFA would not include Planetouched - he did not say, if the votes were not there, he personally would vote against Planetouched. Now, that is what he said afterwards, effectively confusing the issue and we ran into a situation where I am infavor of Planetouched, but I find the DM vote binding; Rusty is against Planetouched, but he does not find the DM vote binding; and Rotku is in favor of planetouched, but will now vote against them.

Clear as mud eh?

So, I have not thrown out ANY process and attempting to attribute such alleged callous disregard for the player base to me in a fit of frustration or to shame me into ignoring the DM poll is both shallow and misplaced. Over the last year and half, there is probably no single person in ALFA who has spent more time, energy and soul working on behalf of the player base in ALFA than me - to have you casually slight my committment because you do not like a decision ALFA has come to is quite insulting, especially given the amount of heart and thought I have put into this issue - one need only look at my many, many posts on this issue in many threads to see that committment.

The bottom line here is that ALFA lacks a formal decision making process, and it needs one, even if it is as simple as "all ALFA policies shall be enacted by a majority vote of the sitting Admin."

[Nyarlathotep]

Outside the discussion of PC/NPC as a general rule planetouched should not be getting very large reactions from anyone barring regional idiosincracies (ie DD would be distrustful if they didn't recognize your face let alone your race) or very outlandish charectaristics. Most of the time you will not be able to tell if a character is planestouched, forget the ridiculous models in MotB for the Gensai (flames instead of red hair for Fire and apparently the Innsmouth look for water gensai), most often the traits that are visible, if any, are minor. And by minor it could be as little as a birthmark, a smell, or the color of their hair. Even going with the extreme example of the horned tiefling (which unfortinately all the default tiefling heads are) the question should be raised as to whether or not your PC is capable of discerning demonic blood from a wizard's transmutation spell, or some bizzare creature. Jumping immediately to OMG demon spawn is either META or a character who probably yells OMG demon at every other creature he sees. Glowing red eyes? Either a tiefling or a monk who is about to be very unhappy. An assimar with silver hair? Could be elf blood.

Not that they won't garner a reaction, they are different after all. Generally the sourcebooks compare them to half-elves except tieflings that get lumped in with the HOs(should probably throw in half-drow in here as well). Then again every PC probably engenders a significant reaction, they are after all generally heavily armed individuals bearing no marks identifying them as a legitimate authority, a description that generally fits bandits as well.

[Inaubryn]

Jayde: Please show me where I called DMs lazy and ignorant. And Planetouched do incoporate into the game seamlessly as any other race of adventurer. Read Nyar's post above.

Mikayla: you have a history of misunderstanding me. Part of the reason I hate forums and chat. Let me clarify. I should have said complaint process as opposed to player review process. When I said that, it has nothin' to do with players voting in this poll or players voting at all. What I was talking about was when there is a complaint, ARs are brought in to investigate, logs are obtained and parsed and based on comments from all involved parties, and logs, the PA, in this case you, makes a decision.

My point was you make your decisions carefully by taking in all of the evidence and statements and getting as many accurate facts as possible before rendering such a decision. I was being sarcastic when referring to how this process and poll took place. It was done with no evidence of the actual effect of planetouched on our world. Decisions were made out of fear and guess work as opposed to well gathered and reviewed fact.

I stated that I guess this was a new trend here in ALFA and so that means we can throw out any process that requires the gathering of facts and just make our decisions based on whims, guesses, and speculations. This had nothing to do with you and what you have done as PA over the last year or so. I certainly hope that clears things up.


Nyar: Good point. But people don't take the time to read up and learn something about the world they're supposed to be participating in, which is an age old DM must. All they care to perceive the situation as is a PC runnin' around with horns, breathing fire and carrying a pitchfork. Drawing conclusions without sufficient logic and evidence. I'm almost ashamed to call myself a nerd.


Edit: And yes, Jayde, I thought the second option had merit as well. Allow them in ALFA Beta with the caveat that depending on how things work out, they may or may not make it to live. This way we don't just cut our feet off before we see if they're of use or not.

[indio]

First of all... I should be able to vote and wasn't able to, so no the matter isn't settled.

[Removed - Mikayla]

I don't know about anyone else, but I find planetouched to be so Mickey Mouse, so ridiculously kitsch and derivative, that they basically cheapen the campaign. The campaign is always at risk of being too cheap and trivial of course (it is, after all, the Forgotten Realms), but planetouched, when combined with the ludicrous Obsidian avatars for them, would help turn the campaign into a kids costume party.

Because I don't DM I can't clam they're going to create more work for me. That's not the reason I voted against them. I voted against them for the same reason I voted against sparkly weapons, and the same reason I voted for standards, even if it means going against canon.

It's our campaign, not canon's campaign, so we get to decide what fits. And that's what you get for being a DM around here. Aint much, but it's everything that counts. [Inflammatory, personal sarcasm removed - Mikayla]

[JaydeMoon]

Inaub, I didn't say you expressly called anyone anything, just that your arguements in effect did so.

Basically DMs should be doing this or that and don't really have any idea about the actual consequences of allowing or disallowing the option. In effect calling them lazy and ignorant.

Now, I don't know that decisions were made out of fear (another allusion to ignorance)... I think they were made out of the fact that DMs just don't want to deal with it, for a variety of reasons. Among them, ignorance and laziness, quite possibly.

Drawing conclusions without sufficient logic and evidence? Ignorant and too lazy to make themselves unignorant so that they can see it your way.

Lazy and ignorant.

I will say that Nyar makes a pretty convincing argument, but again, I voted FOR the inclusion of planetouched, so I'm not the one that needs convincing.

All I'm pointing out now is that regardless of how easy/hard it is to incorporate them, how much sense it does or doesn't make, the plain fact of the matter is that the simple majority of DMs don't want to deal with them. That's a significantly large enough number that including them anyway will be more destructive than not.

[AcadiusLost]

Two quick points:

1) The planetouched we have in MotB seem to represent particularly freakish-looking ones. I understand canon planetouched may be far more subtle and able to pass for normal quirky adventurers- but we've got to weigh them on the basis of their (flaming hair, tentacles and starfish) implementation.

2) Testing in the "real world environment" of NWN2-Beta has to be taken in a realistic light. There is little if any adhoc gaming going on for NWN2 Beta currently. The NWN2-capable and interested players are mostly playing elsewhere until Live, or just checking back periodically to see if we're Live yet. I've only had a handful of people even try logging on to the OAS2 in the months I've hosted it. Those who are beta testing are mostly builders, testing the systems they've built. If Beta2 or Beta3 brings about a renaissance of interest and supplies a wealth of "real" experience we can draw from, it may be useful to gauge things like how much work planetouched PCs might be- but currently that argument comes up pretty hollow to those of us deep in the trenches for NWN2.