Discussion and poll: Donations

This is a general open discussion for all ALFA, Neverwinter Nights, and Dungeons & Dragons topics.

Moderator: ALFA Administrators

Should ALFA facilitate and accept donations to fund hardware and connectivity for ALFA2 ?

yes
51
78%
no
14
22%
 
Total votes: 65

User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

NickD wrote:I have a question. What are your plans for the money? Are you going to wait until you get $7,000 to get the most value for money, or do you think you'd run the 3 month drive and buy whatever you can with the money then upgrade as more money comes in, potentially wasting money on upgrades, but getting immediate results?

I'm not favouring either way. I'm just wondering what your thoughts on the matter are.
There are no plans for anything yet. That is what the thread is for. If you dont have any favouring either way, why post at all ?

Tell me what YOU think would be good and why, guys!!
Last edited by zicada on Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
User avatar
indio
Ancient Red Dragon
Posts: 2810
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:40 am

Post by indio »

Paypal Email

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?c ... ew-outside

Just sign us up.

Clearly this is an Infra job, and surely they should be responsible for collecting the money, organising a host, buying the hardware, installing the software and maintaining the server.

As such, you collect the money, and leave the paypal details accessible only to those who are elected as Infra Admin. I don't see why anyone else needs to know outside of someone like Wynna. Then if anything happens to the current IA, she can pass those details on.

We don't need to start a company. Heck, it's better if we don't. Just call yourself a charity.

edit: the email version if free, while the website donations one is $20 a month.
Image
User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

indio wrote:Paypal Donations

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?c ... -ref-impl5

Just sign us up.

Clearly this is an Infra job, and surely they should be responsible for collecting the money, organising a host, buying the hardware, installing the software and maintaining the server.

As such, you collect the money, and leave the paypal details accessible only to those who are elected as Infra Admin. I don't see why anyone else needs to know outside of someone like Wynna. Then if anything happens to the current IA, she can pass those details on.

We don't need to start a company. Heck, it's better if we don't. Just call yourself a charity.
I would agree that simple is usually better, and were it up to me alone, i would probably have liked something similar to that.

However, we are talking money here, and vast ammounts of it no less.

I think we need official organization for this, and very good documentation. Especially on what the type of position that "someone like Wynna"would hold should entail,- since new blood might have to step in and take over that aswell.

I think that, if it is possible to do this without incorporating, that we should go that way. I have seen a number of similar sites do it this way,- as "charity". On the other hand, i know that ALFA historically will go to great lengths to be 100% "correct" in matters similar to this, involving law and so on. Mik, input ?

What are the possible downsides to going the "charity" route as long as we have a nonpartial team to do book-keeping ?

Do we have any members who are involved in things similar to this in their dayjobs, or otherwise has experience ? Please msg me if any of you do.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

The main purpose of doing this "the right way" is obviously that as many people as possible feel safe donating. That their money is going to be put to good use. By organizing a single person to be the reciepient of all the donations we may have a problem.

Is incorporation a must to use ALFA with its current organazation of administrators at any one time the recepient ?

In my country, it is enough to be a registered organization to do this right. I have no idea how that works in the US however, hence the need for input.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
User avatar
NickD
Beholder
Posts: 1969
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:38 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by NickD »

zicada wrote:There are no plans for anything yet. That is what the thread is for. If you dont have any favouring either way, why post at all ?

Tell me what YOU think would be good and why, guys!!
Because this is a thread for discussion on donations. I am presenting you with a topic for discussion. As you'd be the one managing this whole thing and making the final decisions, I would like to see what you are currently thinking on doing with the money, whether it is the final decision or not.

The majority of people may be in favour of making donations possible, and I include myself as one of them, but it doesn't mean they all agree with buying an ALFA machine. And there's only 40 people who have voted yet. If all of the 34 who voted yes put in an equal amount to buy a machine, that's over $200 each for a $7000 machine. I wouldn't expect them to put in that much. I wouldn't expect them all to put in $25. I wouldn't even expect them all to put in anything. Agreeing that an idea is good is not the same as investing in it.

And so I think if you must buy a machine, I'd aim for the best that you can buy with the money you have collected just before live and decide what you're planning on doing with it before you buy based on what you can afford. And if you can only host one or two servers, then you're going to have to decide which ones, if any.

Personally, I'd rather see money going towards hosting costs rather than a physical asset.

And I really don't want to see admin suddenly getting paid wages from the donations.
Current PCs:
NWN1: Soppi Widenbottle, High Priestess of Yondalla.
NWN2: Gruuhilda, Tree Hugging Half-Orc
User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

NickD wrote:
zicada wrote:There are no plans for anything yet. That is what the thread is for. If you dont have any favouring either way, why post at all ?

Tell me what YOU think would be good and why, guys!!
Because this is a thread for discussion on donations. I am presenting you with a topic for discussion. As you'd be the one managing this whole thing and making the final decisions, I would like to see what you are currently thinking on doing with the money, whether it is the final decision or not.

The majority of people may be in favour of making donations possible, and I include myself as one of them, but it doesn't mean they all agree with buying an ALFA machine. And there's only 40 people who have voted yet. If all of the 34 who voted yes put in an equal amount to buy a machine, that's over $200 each for a $7000 machine. I wouldn't expect them to put in that much. I wouldn't expect them all to put in $25. I wouldn't even expect them all to put in anything. Agreeing that an idea is good is not the same as investing in it.

And so I think if you must buy a machine, I'd aim for the best that you can buy with the money you have collected just before live and decide what you're planning on doing with it before you buy based on what you can afford. And if you can only host one or two servers, then you're going to have to decide which ones, if any.

Personally, I'd rather see money going towards hosting costs rather than a physical asset.

And I really don't want to see admin suddenly getting paid wages from the donations.
Good, thats all i meant. I dont have all the answers heh. I started this thread to get input from you guys.

Ive allready covered what i personally think is the best way to use whatever money we can get together.

Ive also allready said that its probably a good idea to add targets. By targets, if that was unclear, i mean:

[PRESS HERE TO MAKE A DONATION!]

[Current tresury: $0]

[Target 1: <some sort of server or plan>: $cost]

[Target 2: <some sort of server or plan>: $higher cost]

[Target 3: <some sort of server or plan>: $higher cost]


At the end of a certain period, we review Current tresury and plan how to invest based on the Targets we have come up with.

This way we have something to drive against, some goal, or goals.

About the poll, i obviously meant that as of now, the majority seems to be in favor of implementing donations as a system in ALFA.

Again, to repeat myself once more, HOW we get there is what im wondering about. People who know alot about this would be valuable.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6152
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post by Veilan »

Well, after seeing a lot of the questions at hand, here's some answers of how I'd approach this...

Q: What to do with the money after the donation drive?

A: I think if we are within 33% striking distance of the cost for the "optimum" server, we should make another push a bit later, if not, the money should be put to use as the admin can agree on together.



Q: Who owns the money and hardware?

A: Some body of "all the current admin" is suggested, I don't know how that is feasible. If that would work, register a corporation, but I would place ownership with the CC - a group of members we trust and that are spread across the globe, and that stay steady. Still, someone would have to make the purchase in their name, unless we register a corp, which I'm really not all too familiar with.



Q: Who decides which modules are hosted, if we have X slots but more modules?

A: Apparently, this is a tough question. I would hope those who can host their modules themselves without unreasonable effort would do so, but then again, as ALFAns every DM team has in theory the same right to be hosted on our machines. Thus, if we can't find a mutual solution, it should be under the purview of the DMA, with veto power by lead as usual - that would make the most sense, as DMA has oversight over what servers get live status and so on.



Q: How to deal with the serverpark upkeep?

A: Apparently, we have no clue whether we have the willingness in ALFA to see if enough donations roll in every month to pay for the fees for hosting. This still should rely on individuals willing to fork out the amount of cash, and using money from the donation pool, if sufficient, is then used to compensate these members. If we see we get enough each month to easily pay, then we can pay directly over our common donation account.


That donations are anonymous, don't grant any rights and are not required at all goes without saying anyway, and seems to be what everyone managed to agree on.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

Alara wrote:Well, after seeing a lot of the questions at hand, here's some answers of how I'd approach this...

Q: What to do with the money after the donation drive?

A: I think if we are within 33% striking distance of the cost for the "optimum" server, we should make another push a bit later, if not, the money should be put to use as the admin can agree on together.



Q: Who owns the money and hardware?

A: Some body of "all the current admin" is suggested, I don't know how that is feasible. If that would work, register a corporation, but I would place ownership with the CC - a group of members we trust and that are spread across the globe, and that stay steady. Still, someone would have to make the purchase in their name, unless we register a corp, which I'm really not all too familiar with.



Q: Who decides which modules are hosted, if we have X slots but more modules?

A: Apparently, this is a tough question. I would hope those who can host their modules themselves without unreasonable effort would do so, but then again, as ALFAns every DM team has in theory the same right to be hosted on our machines. Thus, if we can't find a mutual solution, it should be under the purview of the DMA, with veto power by lead as usual - that would make the most sense, as DMA has oversight over what servers get live status and so on.



Q: How to deal with the serverpark upkeep?

A: Apparently, we have no clue whether we have the willingness in ALFA to see if enough donations roll in every month to pay for the fees for hosting. This still should rely on individuals willing to fork out the amount of cash, and using money from the donation pool, if sufficient, is then used to compensate these members. If we see we get enough each month to easily pay, then we can pay directly over our common donation account.


That donations are anonymous, don't grant any rights and are not required at all goes without saying anyway, and seems to be what everyone managed to agree on.
Thank you!

+1000xp to Alara for a great post.

I agree with most of the things youre saying here. I know that we have a few members who are willing to cover the expenses for colocating atleast 1 server (around $80 / month). They want to, as many others, stay anonymous.

Obviously, we cant have any way of knowing how much money is possible to raise before trying. Should we end up with a sum below any target that is realistic, I agree that it is probably best to run another donations drive again at a later date.

I don't, like I said allready, expect anyone to have to deal with all the technical aspects of hosting. Isnt that why we have an Infra Admin and staff in the first place ? I think that as long as people know that what they are paying for is a better,- and most likely sorely needed in nwn2, system, that could be enough ?

Again, we dont seem to get too far on the issue on organizing the donations/bookeeping. CC is definately a valid possiblity though imo.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6152
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post by Veilan »

zicada wrote:Should we end up with a sum below any target that is realistic, I agree that it is probably best to run another donations drive again at a later date.
Hm... I actually meant that if we are 33% short, then we make another drive, i.e. we have 67% already. If we're short on that, apparently the willingness to donate isn't so high, and we shold not bother again and again.

I would propose that if we get just some peanuts in, we spend them for ALFA as the admin can agree on (pay for some hosting services, buy some scraps of hardware here and there) and shelve the ambitious plan.

If we are reasonable short of the "big" thing, then we just drive again in a couple of months - naturally, donations rolling in motivate other members to also pitch in to achieve a certain mark.

And if we end up somewhere in the middle, I think it's best to spend the money on some reasonable middle hardware instead of hoping to hold out for another year til we get the big box.

Those are just my personal preferences how to deal with it, of course.

Cheers,
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
indio
Ancient Red Dragon
Posts: 2810
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:40 am

Post by indio »

These figures are mounting.

$7000 or $5000 for a machine.

$80 per month ~ $1000 annually for hosting.

If these anonymous members decide to pack up, that's one hell of an upkeep.

I like the idea and the poll reflects a willingness to support it. And Mike thinks its innovative. But maybe it's a little out of our league. I'm in for $100. All we need now are 80 more people to be, then 10 of those to make their $100 annual. Do we even have 80 members? How much is innovation worth Mike? Something to discuss on the DM Boards perhaps.
Image
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6152
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post by Veilan »

Well, I'm afraid we won't know the numbers we get for sure until we try. Even (anonymous) polls are not really a guarantee that it works, especially as there is a motivational effect if we see that some results were achieved.

We could go to other NWN projects that use donations and ask them for figure. That we have fewer active members than most is a very valid point, however I do think due to the nature of ALFA we have some willingness to pitch in. Kind of like art lovers, heh...

I don't think speculating helps though. If this is deemed okay by the majority and by the admins, then we should make a drive and see what we get - even if get "just" 400$, that money can be put to good use for ALFA.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
zicada
Infrastructure Prawn
Posts: 7924
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Earth

Post by zicada »

indio wrote:These figures are mounting.

$7000 or $5000 for a machine.

$80 per month ~ $1000 annually for hosting.

If these anonymous members decide to pack up, that's one hell of an upkeep.

I like the idea and the poll reflects a willingness to support it. And Mike thinks its innovative. But maybe it's a little out of our league. I'm in for $100. All we need now are 80 more people to be, then 10 of those to make their $100 annual. Do we even have 80 members? How much is innovation worth Mike? Something to discuss on the DM Boards perhaps.
Oh believe me, i know its alot. And $7000 is obviously the "dream-target".

We cant know for sure what ballpark we are in without giving it a shot though. Any $ is going to help anyway.
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Richard Dawkins
User avatar
ç i p h é r
Retired
Posts: 2904
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: US Central (GMT - 6)

Post by ç i p h é r »

We had a discussion a while back about this very issue. Mik did expand on the legalities in that thread, but damned if I can find it. In a nut shell, we'd have to incorporate to legally accept donations. ALFA Admin would function as officers of the ALFA legal entity. We'd also have some protection in the event any legal action is taken against ALFA (our own personal assets are not at risk), which is comforting to say the least.

On the donations front, I'd say paypal is the obvious choice too. A donations link and meter on our site with listed targets/goals/objectives is pretty much what I had in mind as well.

p.s. We can do some proof of concept by testing multiple NWN2server instances on a dual core machine. The performance degradation would presumably parallel that of quadcore, but on a smaller scale obviously.
User avatar
ç i p h é r
Retired
Posts: 2904
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: US Central (GMT - 6)

Post by ç i p h é r »

Okay finally found it...in the Off Topic forum. :shock:

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... c&start=60

The thread above dovetails into a conversation relevant to this discussion from pages 5 and on. Mik's input on the legalities starts on page 7.
User avatar
Grand Fromage
Goon Spy
Posts: 1838
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:04 am
Location: Chengdu, Sichuan, China

Post by Grand Fromage »

Maybe we should find out how much all of our current servers cost, and how much the hosts are paying for bandwidth. The price of this certainly sounds pretty hefty, but it may not be any more than we're paying right now, it's just concentrated and up-front.

Like the $80 per month for hosting... I'm certain that as a whole, we're paying WAY more than that for hosting right now.
Post Reply