24 Hour Cool Down between Servers

[Swift]

IMO the only legitimate reason to enforce time and travel restrictions is to prevent abuse from server hopping to run statics, or join in multiple DM events to which your PC has no real IC connection, or most disturbingly for purposes of engaging in CvC. However, we have other rules to address these situations, and DMs are more than capable of preventing such abuses when they see them. Just some things to consider to the extent Admin get around to reviewing the current system.

Of the 3 things you mentioned, only one of them can reasonably be prevented (server hopping to farm DM events). The other two are almost impossible to stop unless a DM happens to be on at the time and is paying attention to the person who just appeared on the server (the majority of DMs log in specifically to run events). When they do occur, they create significant out of game time sinks for the DM team and the Player/DM Admin that pull DMs away from being in game, which often leads to complaints of too much time being spent on Game B rather than Game A.

Its not the best of trade offs, but it is a damn sight better than nothing at all.

[Zelknolf]

I would also note that, among the abuses we saw in NWN1 were people crossing multiple servers in a day to gain access to more-advantageous merchants, and then returning to the current server in the same day. I would certainly expect to see this done more routinely with removed restrictions, as people on the (relatively-poor) Moonshaes do currently save up valuables and hop over to Baldur's Gate to sell them. I do see this as fine for the overall narrative when it's done rarely and people save up the things that they need to sail off to sell, but if this was routinely and for single items? Meh.

Of course, there's still a certain degree of cheese that comes from our current density of build (which is about 2% of the area that we claim to cover-- unless folk really are claiming that there's no space between areas, in which case Baldur's Gate and Silverymoon both pack 40,000 people into less than a square mile) which makes it so that we see people traveling 50x faster than we might expect in a server with complete coverage and detail and makes scampering across a server in a day doable, and people certainly run from Beregost to Baldur's Gate to sell gems-- but it's not as bad as Daggerdale -> Waterdeep -> Daggerdale [by way of Cormyr] in one day, either.

[oldgrayrogue]

As I said in another post, I hear you Swift on the PA and DM headaches. Lets then focus on at least having a direct sea link between all servers to avoid the need for "pass through" travel and forced 24 hour layovers.

As to Zelk's point about merchants, that is beyond meta cheese in my opinion. Frankly, if a player wants to travel halfway across Faerun every other day just to sell some virtual loot for a few more virtual sheckles then there are larger issues with that player that need to be addressed. Its just pure metagaming -- no actual person would make so frequent journeys for a few more pieces of gold.

[Regas]

Admin will review this and get back to the community. I for one see no point in tying a player up in a non-playable section of Alfa for 24 hours. I had no idea that could even happen, and I doubt Cast wants to see it that way either. The 24 hour cool down should not force a player's pc into a time out, in my opinion.

I can't support allowing two pcs on the same server though, and I do believe a 24 hour period between server ports has value to slow down dm farming and other abuses, allowing for DM validation where it is a convince for the dm teams. If a majority of admin and members feel strongly about changing the 24 hour rule we can certainly review it.

Regas

[Zelknolf]

Well, it's not really unplayable space. There's no restriction that stops the character in the hollow husk we call Waterdeep from sailing off to other parts of the Moonshaes to find fame, fortune, and/or pleasant conversation while on server. The same argument that says it should be fine to rocket off to Silverymoon says it should be fine to rocket off to Corwell and still be able to play.


And, of course, real people do travel for the sake of selling goods for a few more sheckles, generally in bulk, but the philosophy of long-distance travel to profit from a markup has been a thing since antiquity. (and was so popular that even the Mongols sponsored the sort, mostly so they could tax it.).

Our systems don't do the best job of enforcing the overhead for doing so, 'course, and we can go on mighty long discussions about how it's best handled. That was one of the issues brought up when we were talking portals in ALFA2, so it bears mentioning again.

[Galadorn]

I love OGR. All good ideas and understandable frustration, but, like Max hinted at above, while I do not call anyone a "whiner", this situation among others appears after the 2 PC rule.

So I wanted to go from WHL to TSM with my alt. Can't go through BG because I have another PC there. Can't go direct WHL to TSM, have to go through MS.

So many people wanted 2 PCs. And now more "problems" appear because of it. No one dares ever think to drop the 2 PC rule... instead, minor issues continue come up as I see it a result, so people complain about how to change those other things, that have been in ALFA a long time, to accomodate again as I see it... endless accomodations supporting the 2 PC rule.

I don't care who likes it. And many of my favourite people are happy for the 2 PC rule.

I just think something really special about ALFA was lost when 2 PCs were allowed, and I constantly hear minor OOC complaints from the same people who GOT WHAT THEY WANTED (2 PCs, gratz), but now, are running into other issues, especially with the OOC and in my opinion immersion RUINING situations of not being able to travel to "a server" where an "Alt" is?!? Man that makes me cringe.

((EDIT: Slightly off-topic sorry:))It used to be something special to get high level.
ALFA was always that way. Now most have a 2nd PC, so do not need to retire their "Main"....man oh man it all sounds much more like WoW to me. And WoW is the quintessential opposite of anything "role-playing".

Not only will they never need to retire that "main", that main PC is already powerful so will just never ever ever...go away. It's not that bad to go away, in fact playing so long and making that decision more often than not was one of the best/coolest/respectful thing we as ALFAns rarely got to do.

I mentioned on a previous rant, and thank god SOMEONE had the balls to agree, that playing a PC and making that decision to retire him/her after years of play possibly earning permanent lasting "awe", and respect both OOC and IC... even building a cool area/temple/castle to retire in becomine an NPC on an ALFA server was a thing of true accomplishment. Not to mention then after so long, being able to roll a new PC and start a new story. Now, not only does no one ever retire their "main", but we even allowed previously retired PCs retro-take-back retirement? Poor ALFA.



Whenever I get into one of these Ƥøا threads I get flamed to sh*t, so now it's my turn.

I've heard this before from others so here's my "suggestion": IF ALFA's "rules" are bothering you, go play somewhere else.

This is NOT directed at OGR in any way. I don't even know who it's directed at. And I DON'T want anyone to go anywhere. But, ALFA was awesome years ago. The way it was. Why are we accomodating this stuff.

Player count be damned, these rules are changing ALFA in a bad way, and mark these words: with the 2 PC rule, will come MANY MORE "accomodations" to those who don't have the patience to pick a character, play, die/retire, Roll a new one.

I'd be VERY surprised if 2 PCs is increasing any player count. THAT was ALFA's biggest problem and what many people ((Thank you Wombat for your initiative there with the player "Retention" forum)) wanted to try and solve most of all.

Worst of all? Since the 2 PC rule, a bunch of long time and amazing players have already left. Or play a lot less. Can you say player reduction?

There are many other I say valid reasons I mentioned in another thread i'm not bringing up again, i don't want to or mean to hijack this thread with a "2 PC rule sucks" rants again, since the same people will just write a 1 line reply slamming my opinion anyway, so f*sk it. Not repeating them.


Please: Leave ALFA alone with respect to pillars, and some of the things that limit PGing. 24 hour lay over in just one.

So many people ARE true and honorable players. But some just can't be? So we change ALFA to help them "PG in another way"? Why!? dammit.


I say forget strikes: Kick em out at first offenses. With a nice big "Grow Up!" as the door bumps them in the ass as they're walking out the exit.


meh, here i go again - and i'm a carebear... can you imagine this rant if I wasn't?


Welcome to ALFA new players, soon PCs will be allowed to start at 5th level, and we'll be able to DM ourselves real time using 2 computers. ((hey now, you didn't think I could get through a thread this long without SOME of my signature sarcasm now did you?))


Cheers all. Good luck on your 3rd PCs.

[oldgrayrogue]

Well, it's not really unplayable space. There's no restriction that stops the character in the hollow husk we call Waterdeep from sailing off to other parts of the Moonshaes to find fame, fortune, and/or pleasant conversation while on server. The same argument that says it should be fine to rocket off to Silverymoon says it should be fine to rocket off to Corwell and still be able to play.

It is once you get on the boat. You are stuck there. Can't port to TSM and can't get off the boat. In fairness there is a scripted warning before you get on the boat, but I misunderstood it, and assume others could as well. Oh and the next time I see a PC with a caravan of goods crossing servers to take advantage of exchange rates I'll concede the point about the Mongols. Magic bags don't count =P

[Mikayla]

Galadorn:

But, ALFA was awesome years ago.

It still is. A pillar may have fallen, but nothing lasts forever, nor should it. Evolution requires change, even of that which we hold dear.

A bit of perspective: the argument over 2-PCs and the argument over 24-hour delays pales in comparisons to the arguments of ALFA in the old days, one of which resulted in the ALFAQuake, and others that spawned my satires in ALFA WARS and cost us more DMs and players than I can count. Even in the old days, ALFA was constantly fighting internal battles to define itself. And it still is. Believe it or not, I see that as a healthy thing. It means people still care enough about ALFA to get on the boards and argue passionately about what does or does not make ALFA better. So, take issue with the rules, take issue with the lack of rules, but remember that ALFA has always had these internal struggles, and ... more importantly ... ALFA needs these internal struggles. Its how ALFA evolves. And that which does not evolve, is bound for extinction. That doesn't mean we have to accept every proposed change - but it does mean that we should not shy away from debating those changes, nor should we look back and think everything was perfect in the past. I had a great time playing my PC in NWN1; at the same time, I fought more battles than I can count over rules that I thought would make or break ALFA. Its just part of the process.

[Wild Wombat]

meh, here i go again - and i'm a carebear... can you imagine this rant if I wasn't?

There can be only one Oso Cuidadoso.

But I thought you were off somewhere eating a decade's worth of fish? I guess some people don't need to take seven or eight years off before they "unretire"!

[Galadorn]

huh?


WW2, you won't see this cat "unretire", my friend. My PC nor I quit forever.... and i didn't want to post at all, cause i did quit for what i wanted to be a longer time overall, but it's just a forum post.


At least your reply was not 1 line. But like I predicted, it ain't long for even the mildly flaming responses to begin. I'm surprised you started it though. Especially since i called you out to thank and praise your efforts on the Retention thread... But please carry on, the next one will be: "Just kidding, relax, was no harm intended." That right?

[Galadorn]

Galadorn:

But, ALFA was awesome years ago.

It still is.

I agree fully!

Perhaps I should have elaborated to say: "ALFA was more awesome than now from around 2002 or so until the day before the change"? My bad.

[Castano]

ALFA was so awesome that our numbers were perilously low. You love the old ALFA? then why weren't you guys logging in to play? As I told admin a while back when our numbers were low I would not build content to be used by a handful of hypercritical people, not worth my time.

[Swift]

Our numbers were perilously low because NWN1 was a stupidly old game by the time NWN2 was on the horizon and there were far fewer people buying it than were leaving.

You know...sort of like NWN2 is right now, which is a primary reason we have again gotten to the stage of worrying about declining numbers.

Seriously, any attempt to put our ALFA1 declining numbers at the foot of anything other than that is an absolute joke. It is absolutely no coincidence that when the game was new, we thrived despite how restrictive we were compared to other world's. Now all we do is change things to chase a player base that, for the most part, are not interested in what ALFA was.

Old game was old and most had lost interest. What a fucking shock.

[Mikayla]

Castano:

You love the old ALFA? then why weren't you guys logging in to play?

I mentioned the reasons in one of those "hey I'm back" posts, but here are the reasons:

1. I had such an awesome experience playing my drow in NWN1 that everything that followed in NWN2 was pale in comparison.

2. After spending 2 years building the North Underdark, and 2 years as PA, and I don't know how long as an Admissions Reviewer, an AR, HDM, ADM, etc., I found I was just tired of my life revolving around ALFA.

3. A dispute that arose after I left the PA position. At the time I felt very bitter about it; in retrospect, looking through my PMs from the time, I really received overwhelming support from the other Admin (except the one coming after me) and ALFA members. For every person calling for my demise, there were 10 or more who were supporting me. It ultimately came out fine for me, but it left me bitter. I should have paid more attention to the love-bombs I was receiving, and not the competitively few negative messages.

4. A person got elected to an Admin position that I did not think should get elected to Admin position (nothing to do with prior issue). I won't say who or why, even though the person is gone from ALFA now I believe. Again, with years of distance, this really should not have been a big issue.

In the end, I was not having enough fun playing because of #1 and #2 above, while at the same time, #3 and #4 were making me upset about being around here.

And ... there was one last reason. I don't owe ALFA anything anymore. I built a server, drafted the pillars, helped write the charter, served as this that and the other thing for years .. I don't owe ALFA my time. ALFA is a hobby we choose to partake in, not an obligation we must devote ourselves too regardless of our own feelings.

So, I left. I didn't post a good-bye post, I didn't set anything on fire when I left, I just .. left. A number of folks tried to recruit me back to ALFA over the last four years, and I thank them all for their love and efforts. But I could only come back when I wanted to come back, for me, not for someone else. And, now, that has happened.

But ... despite all of that, it doesn't mean ALFA isn't awesome, or wasn't awesome. Four years ago, ALFA stopped being awesome for me. And just for me. Somewhere along the line it stopped being awesome for others - Wynna eventually left, as did most of those I came into the project with. But the project carries on. It won't last forever of coursse, but hell, this thing has been going for more than a decade!!!

ALFA is and was awesome, even when I was burned out on it.

[Zelknolf]

It is once you get on the boat. You are stuck there. Can't port to TSM and can't get off the boat. In fairness there is a scripted warning before you get on the boat, but I misunderstood it, and assume others could as well. Oh and the next time I see a PC with a caravan of goods crossing servers to take advantage of exchange rates I'll concede the point about the Mongols. Magic bags don't count =P

PC merchanting on the list of things that would be cool if we could do it really well, and it would be late on the list of things that we'd add (probably after a full suite of travel methods and a seafaring version of the OLM). I do indeed note that it's pretty flimsy in its current state and amounts to people filling up regular inventories, but it's still an in character goal and one of the things we hoped to throttle.

I'll see about building an emergency escape into the exit portal boats. I'd thought that all of our portal boats included the sort, but we must've missed a few.