Encouragement: It's an issue of trust

[boombrakh]

Well this discussion went off-rail quick. It was about trust, not about more rules. Or different rules. Or alternate rules. Just trust.

At least one person gets it

ALFA might not have started like this, but progressively, it has turned more and more into enforcement and restrictions. Roleplaying isn't about winning or loosing, it isn't about rules and regulations. Roleplaying, and especially in ALFA, is about interaction. Just look at where the topic of the two-PC rule comes from and why people want to be able to play where they DM. It's not about trying to circumvent the "rules" or gain the upper hand, it is about people wanting to be able to play with people.

I am not opposed to the 24-hour rule of travelling, it makes sense. That wasn't even what this was all about. The thread was about encouraging everyone to just trust eachother a bit more. We're in the business of suspension of disbelief, people. Even one of ALFAs loading screen tips encourages us to be vague when it comes to time.
But again, not the topic here.

I know that experience teaches us not to "put the hand on the hot plate a second time" so to speak. As DM's we tend to get jaded when we encounter people that abuse our trust and to deal with that, we erect rules and we regulate behaivior through scripting so that we wont have to deal with the same situation again. All I wanted to say was that as a DM, or as a fellow player, to just stop for a moment and allow yourself to be trusting of your fellow man (or woman).

Tell you what. As (hopefully) the future HDM of Waterdeep, I will make it my business to trust players. If they die from lag, I wont go looking through logs, demand screenshots, or otherwise make it troublesome to get a tech-rez. I will personally make sure that they get restored to their old selves with a plausible IC story and send them on their merry way. I'll do this because it's how I want others to treat me when I die from a lag. And for the same reason, I'll also assume that players who find something abusable on the server, something broken, will report this to me so I can make it better.

Trusting someone isn't hard. We do it every day. And what is ultimately the price we pay when someone breaks that trust in ALFA? Nothing. Some hurt pride perhaps or some loss of prestige? Nothing worth anything in the long run. We're all in this together and if this community is going to attract new players who will want to stay, then we need to be open and encouraging. I can't make other people do what I want, but I can act the way I think everyone should and that is what I do.

Best of wishes to everyone, see you all in the game!

[Heero]

I dont trust Ronan. I think he wants to kill me.

Edit: Also, tech. I dont trust tech. Last night, I rolled not 1, but 4 20/20s for max damage. I *pew pew pew*d my way to glory and riches (or neither). If there arent super secret cheat code scripts running that give good characters better die rolls, then Im the King of England (or Poland, more likely Poland)!

[/looks of suspicion at the German and his lackeys]

[Blindhamsterman]

I dont trust Ronan. I think he wants to kill me.

Edit: Also, tech. I dont trust tech. Last night, I rolled not 1, but 4 20/20s for max damage. I *pew pew pew*d my way to glory and riches (or neither). If there arent super secret cheat code scripts running that give good characters better die rolls, then Im the King of England (or Poland, more likely Poland)!

[/looks of suspicion at the German and his lackeys]

I nearly snorted tea reading this... I hope you're proud

I think part of the issue people have is simply that it IS immersion breaking for characters about them to be on the other side of Faerun one day, then back with them the next.

I'd suggest, make travel expensive, it helps to balance out the additional gains that someone that does jump from DM event to DM event will get. Keep travel times the same, people that want to go from server to server on a daily basis can, but it'll cost them a small fortune very quickly.

It should be about balance, give and take. I suspect we can agree that we all want to have fun. And thats good!
So lets balance it out a little by having the travel costs upped to maybe 100 GP. Thats expensive but still easily affordable after DM Events. I'd avoid making it cheaper for low levels for one reason: Static Content. For the most part the low levels are the ones with access to a fairly large amount of gold.

I do like the idea of the 'home turf' tokens mentioned earlier too, increasing exp gains on home server and decreasing exp gains on all other servers would be a good way to balance the two types of players out as well (i.e. those that wander, and those that nest I guess)

[Adanu]

I dont trust Ronan. I think he wants to kill me.

Edit: Also, tech. I dont trust tech. Last night, I rolled not 1, but 4 20/20s for max damage. I *pew pew pew*d my way to glory and riches (or neither). If there arent super secret cheat code scripts running that give good characters better die rolls, then Im the King of England (or Poland, more likely Poland)!

[/looks of suspicion at the German and his lackeys]

I nearly snorted tea reading this... I hope you're proud

I think part of the issue people have is simply that it IS immersion breaking for characters about them to be on the other side of Faerun one day, then back with them the next.

I'd suggest, make travel expensive, it helps to balance out the additional gains that someone that does jump from DM event to DM event will get. Keep travel times the same, people that want to go from server to server on a daily basis can, but it'll cost them a small fortune very quickly.

It should be about balance, give and take. I suspect we can agree that we all want to have fun. And thats good!
So lets balance it out a little by having the travel costs upped to maybe 100 GP. Thats expensive but still easily affordable after DM Events. I'd avoid making it cheaper for low levels for one reason: Static Content. For the most part the low levels are the ones with access to a fairly large amount of gold.

I do like the idea of the 'home turf' tokens mentioned earlier too, increasing exp gains on home server and decreasing exp gains on all other servers would be a good way to balance the two types of players out as well (i.e. those that wander, and those that nest I guess)

If more expensive travel is put in, I would suggest that the fear that DMs have of giving magical loot and good gold to players ebs a bit too. Level 1-2s I can understand not getting much, but 5+?

I'm not sure of the root of that fear, but it gets a bit tiring when practically most of your DM sessions are losses or giving a pittance for big things like Ogre warbands or whatever.

Anyway, I do agree that a bit more trust would be nice both ways... and while I understand that there *are* cheaters about... isn't it the DMs job to root out such people, without having to blanket ban every little possibly abusable thing?

[Castano]

But I think some people find it just a little anti-immersive that PCs are bouncing everywhere across servers to hit those DM sessions that happen weekly when the travel times are "IC huge"... i mean go ahead and RP it... but what does that mean?

"Oh yea remember last week here in Silverymoon when we killed those Orcs!... when we cut their ears off it reminded me of the other day in Skaug when Orcs jumped a caravan there, we did the same thing! and uuh yea, the boat we took from here to Skaug, and then back here yesterday was a real FAST boat, yea! More ale!! and quick! We gotta be in Beregost to quell that Werewolf uprising like STAT..... yea yea we'll take the same boat to arms!!...."

*blink* *blink*

...and yes, whoever is speaking might say: "Last month!", but then anyone else around might think "hmmm last month???", etc, etc... you get the drift...


Bottom line question:

Is it Ok to "just RP the travel time"... and in doing so is it Ok to hit all/many DM sessions (including getting DM-Validated to be able to MAKE those sessions)?

If it's Ok, then game on!

The above is not how to RP travel..use "last season" it is indefinite as to time. Also one should avoid RPing time as much as possible since every PC in alfa is on a different "clock" with some having had a year's worth of adventures in 2 months and other players who seldom log in having had only a few week's worth.

As for hitting too many DM events - we have very few Dms so our DMs have made it a point to include as many alfans as possible in their games. If your PC concept requires one on one DMing please either hire a personal DM or roll something that works conceptually in a group.

When we have a large corps of Dms available then "DM farming" may become an issue.

I'll just say DM farming had to do with certain players hopping to each session AND trying to exclude the other players and grab up the DM for themselves (ahem Hignar). I lost a BG DM to this once and my session was ruined so I know how it feels. This is not what is happening now.

[Galadorn]

lol, yup, i was just making the supreme sarcastic version of how someone might try to RP being on TSM, then MS, then TSM and wanting to hoppity to Bg the next day...

i sure hope no one actually RP's time like that!

[dirsa]

like i said before....

there are two entirely different animals we're discussing...

there's travel to simply get to people to play with. and it should be encouraged. playing by yourself with yourself... is.. well... like playing with yourself. while it still may be fun, it is certainly better if someone else is around...

another form of travel is hitting all dm events in orderly timely fashion. while it doesn't disturb me one bit as far as xp and rewards go, the realism is broken when a toon A is a hero of three simultaneous campaigns... that's the travel we would want to stop. and the solution is as simple as it can be. dms should excersize discretion when taking peeps up for a game...

the end.

[Veilan]

This discussion touches upon many issues that are always keystones in our community, and come up regularly with different schools of philosophical thought.

Trust is something good and great, but I don't think it's the issue being debated here - we're not talking about trust, but what constitutes immersive behaviour, and what doesn't. Trust is always important, and much energy has been devoted by past and current DMAs especially to offer a basis of training and common standards that helps players trust DMs, and vice versa.

Regardless, as paazin hinted at from his recent experiences, trust is something earnt, not given. The idea of just punishing the bad apples is great in theory - in practice, however, it simply does not work. Most DMs don't want to police, and DMs should not be made to police any more than absolutely necessary - and if they do, we need to be supportive of them, and try to not make their job any more of a headache than it already is. The "rule focus" which is being harped on is just a natural evolution from there, and I fully agree that (badly designed) rules just increase frustration and serve no purpose (hence my opposition to "running fatigue" - not that I mind the concept, but a hard-scripted enforcement there is just not suited to prevent the initial problem: people running where it makes no IC sense, and then being dishonest about it).
On the other hand, a well-designed hard-coded rule eases game flow for everyone, removes the need for policing, and gives players a clear guideline of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. The problem is not rules; the problem, in this case, comes from too many, conflicting, or poorly designed rules. For instance, we have the 24 hour portalling "rule". But it is no rule, it's a tech implementation to help remind people of / confuse people about the ultimate overriding rule we have:

2.1 Metagaming
Metagaming is gaming that transcends the game. It is taking advantage of the fact that NwN is a game, and doing things you could not do if you were actually in the game world.

I think the 24 hour rule is somewhat poorly designed - it reasonably suggests that it is alright to portal every 24 hours at leisure, yet that would clash with our metagaming rule (because if you did it constantly, you would be doing things quite impossible for actually being in the game world) by the rule falling short. If we don't want people to be able to travel every 24 hours, then we should implement a rule that deals with what time we think appropriate.

Fixing the rule is not easy, because we have two very distinct problems: People just wanting to meet up with playmates to try having a more fulfilling game elsewhere opposed to people playing event-chasing, perhaps even on a planned regular "circuit". I am very, very supportive of the first, and think allowing people the possibility to concentrate is absolutely necessary to maintain their enjoyment of a multiplayer, roleplay-driven game. Hence why I secured Castano's and Curm's committment to a TSM-MS portal. However, seeing people play in one campaign each week and then in the next weekly one across the world the other day is debatable, even though we are definetely challenged in the concentration department. But this would lead us quickly into another debate - that about whether we should expand and spread even further because it's one of our unique strengths, or start consolidating as possible to maintain an enjoyable player and DM concentration.

One idea might be to increase the portalling cooldown to reflect the sentiments of immersion, and to stop worrying if someone makes use of that cooldown. I might like this to go hand in hand with a stipulation that every server must connect with each other - meaning you can make a quick initial jump to the server you want to be on, but then have to wait before making another of those jumps. It wouldn't be perfect either, and likely have other problems, but I have no glorious idea how to help people find fun yet keep the immersion / metagame intact while we are spread over many timezones and servers. But the debate is certainly worth having.

As for new rules... I believe in this case our current rules, namely 2.1 (Metagaming) and 2.6 (Powergaming) are quite sufficient. We should not start to define in minute detail just what is acceptable when under what circumstances, but use the rules we have, and be supportive of those who may still be trusting the players as a whole but see the examples of bad apples. Trust, after all, runs both ways, and when an HDM speaks out about something, he may just have a genuine grievance, and not be out to "persecute".

I'll try to start a couple of polls on the issue(s) soon and whittle down what the community consensus is to help inform policy. If anyone has great ideas, do share them!

Cheers,

[t-ice]

Fixing the rule is not easy, because we have two very distinct problems: People just wanting to meet up with playmates to try having a more fulfilling game elsewhere opposed to people playing event-chasing, perhaps even on a planned regular "circuit". I am very, very supportive of the first ... However, seeing people play in one campaign each week and then in the next weekly one across the world the other day is debatable,

This somehow seems to be the great delusion here. These are one and the same thing. Either your character hops between several plot rails at the same time on different parts of the world, or does not. "Meeting up with playmates for a fulfilling game" is precisely "event-chasing", just framed in other words. Even a regular weekly pattern or not does not change this.

What's different is hopping when you are leaving no pressing plot roots behind, but generally that should only be true for new PCs, and exceptional points in time, i.e. when plotlines end. In a good game characters have fascinating storylines that captivate them, after all. (Or else all PCs stories need to be engineered as "drifters who don't give a ****" to justify the metagaming of server hopping)

but I have no glorious idea how to help people find fun yet keep the immersion / metagame intact while we are spread over many timezones and servers. But the debate is certainly worth having.

There is no perfect solution, but only two possible ways to go. Either cage PCs strongly to the servers by scripting, or trust players with the power to make their own decision whether it's IC for their PC to travel: Don't force them to travel if they want to play, but allow them to join game with another character - one way or another.

There really is no way to avoid one of the below :
1) The disbelief of the same PCs hopping all over Faerun, saving the world on parallel tracks.
2) People not being able to game for being stranded to a lonely sandbox.
3) The risk of misbehavior if the strict one PC rule is lifted, one way or another.

I'd daresay that if everyone would trust and empower each other, in the spirit of the OP, the decision should be clear as crystal

That one issue aside, the OP made for a pleasant and motivational read. Very well said and framed, boom. Empower and trust people and you will find they will overwhelmingly act responsibly. Call me one step toward paranoid, but I would add one more thing, though: Trust and empower - then maximize transparency, and make everyone know no action stays "private" in a dark corner.

[Veilan]

I would add one more thing, though: Trust and empower - then maximize transparency, and make everyone know no action stays "private" in a dark corner.

A fair point. As we say here in the Vaterland, it's Vertrauen ist gut - Kontrolle ist besser.

[Rotku]

Whoa. A few reasonable, mildly intelligent posts in a row. That's got to be a first for ALFA

[zicada]

Whoa. A few reasonable, mildly intelligent posts in a row. That's got to be a first for ALFA

C-C-C-C-COMBO-BREAKER!!

[Regalis]

However, seeing people play in one campaign each week and then in the next weekly one across the world the other day is debatable, even though we are definetely challenged in the concentration department. But this would lead us quickly into another debate - that about whether we should expand and spread even further because it's one of our unique strengths, or start consolidating as possible to maintain an enjoyable player and DM concentration.

One idea might be to increase the portalling cooldown to reflect the sentiments of immersion, and to stop worrying if someone makes use of that cooldown. I might like this to go hand in hand with a stipulation that every server must connect with each other - meaning you can make a quick initial jump to the server you want to be on, but then have to wait before making another of those jumps. It wouldn't be perfect either, and likely have other problems, but I have no glorious idea how to help people find fun yet keep the immersion / metagame intact while we are spread over many timezones and servers. But the debate is certainly worth having.

The problem is how ALFA makes decisions. Someone has something that they are upset about so they make a post. Everyone flogs that issue to death. Older members probably never need to stop to give new thought to the subject because it's all been said before.

What the leaders need to do is remind people of how the issues are interconnected. Just polling member input for an issue in isolation may be counterproductive if it is part of a tightly coupled, interoperable problem.

To illustrate, I'm going to pretend I'm asking a number of polling questions and then provide answers based only on considering that issue in isolation:

More than one PC? No.

More servers? Yes.

More realistic travel delays? Yes.

But see, all 3 of those questions/problems are subsets of a bigger problem of density. Sufficient density is required for enjoyment, as you recognize. That means that anytime you are going to answer any of those questions, you need to analyze how your answer will interact with your current answers to the other questions. Otherwise, you might ultimately do more harm than good, through unintended consequences.

So if you instead ask people:

Would you rather have more servers and realistic time travel, but multiple PCs? (Sacrifice 1 PC pillar.)
OR
Would you rather have one PC and more servers, but play seriously fast-and-lose with the space-time continuum? (Sacrifice immersion.)
OR
Would you rather have one PC and realistic time travel, but forgo expanding the scope of the realms and instead focus on adding more features to the current servers? (Sacrifice geographic scope.)
OR
Do you want one PC, realistic time travel, and many servers, one of which you can play on by yourself? (Sacrifice participating with others.)

You might come to see a different picture of what people truly want. Because there's what people say they want and what people truly want when confronted with the actual consequences of their actions. It's important not to let debates be governed by narrow ideological views on issues in isolation; but rather, broaden the scope of the debate to help people better understand the real consequences of their decisions. Otherwise, ALFA will ultimately be no better governed than Greece.

[Castano]

+1 to Regalis.

I'm in favor of sacrificing some time immersion to accomplish playable servers.

Outr plots last too long for us to do otherwise. If DMs tightened up their timelines and ran a plot that lasted no longer than one month we would not need travel during the RL time middle of a plot. As it stands with the way plots progress slowly in real time over many many months or even across years we are stranding players on servers with nothign to do but use static content. (whereas in game time they are unfolding in a matter of weeks or months)

Otherwise we may as well shift to just one server and swap areas in and out as needed for plots - which is not the ALFA vision, woudl suck immensely since our play space would be at the ever changing mercy of DMs - e.g. one day you would wake up with parts of BG added to the alfa server for the sake of a plot and then poosf they would be gone.

[Duck One]

Boom makes some good points. Dungeons & Dragons has never had a set objective to “win”. It is a recreational activity more than a “game” with the real purpose of playing to enjoy the moments it creates. You play with other participants, not against them. The role the DM is one of story telling and creating opportunities for players to enjoy some fantasy, not as the “adversary”, and his role as “referee” is to preserve the integrity of the process for your benefit, not his. In short, if you cheat the process in some way, you’re only taking away from the experience for yourself, much like reading the last page of the book first.

As a community of adults it should be understood that we begin from a position of trust; that each person can gain nothing real and nobody should feel threatened by the idea that someone could “cheat”. They can, and perhaps some will, but that is their loss. We shouldn’t feel the need to spend undo effort trying to prevent it, for that only invites the bureaucracy and quarrels that will surely follow.

As a Pen and Paper DM, I never looked at someone’s dice, and I never felt the need to show them mine. I put challenges in front of them that I thought would be fair tests, and gave them appropriate rewards when they managed them. It’s just a game. Have fun.