cliques in ALFA

[rorax]

While I agree with t-ice, it is worth noting the things that led to this latest discussion was nothing of the sort. I do not want people to suddenly think that is why we are discussing the topic again, as it simply isn't.

That is all.

It's exactly what led to this discussion. I tell you that two different new players who do not know each other AND others who are not new, complained on the same group of people. How you would explain that if not exactly on how t-ice put it?

[Veilan]

I believe it is a problem if we give new players any other impression than that they are welcome here. If that is for whatever reasons not possible to do via IC means, so be it - it is easy enough to give them advice, friendly words and a good welcome OOC.

This is a group game, and retention is going to be nil for new recruits if they feel shunned in some fashions. Cliques, sadly, do have the habit of bringing out the worst instincts via group dynamics, but that means players in factions / groups should have the biggest motivation to counteract that impression, no?

[Spider Jones]

"Freedom to choose your friends" is a poor excuse for bullying new members. And bullying new members is surely detrimental to the community as a whole. Simple as that.

Well, I wouldn't want to play with anyone who was bullying me. I'd probably hop server.

If someone is feeling harassed they need to speak to the Player Admin and/or his/her henchmans. I'd be willing to guess that this sort of combative "attack" on whoever belongs to the clique in question is not helping things at all either. It does seem that some members have a bone to pick, talk to the Player Admin and sort things out.

Or don't. It's fun to read sometimes...

[danielmn]

While I agree with t-ice, it is worth noting the things that led to this latest discussion was nothing of the sort. I do not want people to suddenly think that is why we are discussing the topic again, as it simply isn't.

That is all.

It's exactly what led to this discussion. I tell you that two different new players who do not know each other AND others who are not new, complained on the same group of people. How you would explain that if not exactly on how t-ice put it?

This is simple, and should be simply explained to new players.

1. There are PC's, and groups of PC's, that have their own agendas. These agendas may be on the opposite end of the spectrum than your PC's. Accept this as fact. Do not take it personally (which by the tone laid out here I think some have). I don't see bullying IG very often, but when it happens, again it is nothing personal, it is something IC. When it has happened, it was handled in an IG manner. Slap someone around? Your likely to get that someone's friends on your butt.

2. If you/your PC doesn't like how they are treated by a certain group of people, AVOID THEM. Icly, all PC's aren't going to be holding hands and getting along. A PC's actions/veiws may well run counter to others, leading to an oil/water mixture. Some people like this adversity...some don't. If you don't, then cut a wide path and stear clear.

That being said, my own experience lends me to rp and welcome new players.... escourting them on a dangerous patrol static while Icly pointing out places and people. Holding small OOC sessions to teach them how to use the tents, die rolls, and other mechanisms. I generally go out of my way to help newcomers feel welcome, as in the case of the OP.

All that said, I belong to an IC clique. Dwarves are a different breed of PC...with their own differing social conventions, their own morals, their own histories. The IC clique formed around DM request of such, in that dwarves tend to be exclusive when it comes to their own Holds and activities surrounding those Holds, and as such, non-dwarves are not usually welcomed in Dwarven affairs. Again, DM requested. Because I belong to this group, am I prevented from rping with others? Not in the least. I can and do.

Faerun isn't a place of fuzzy bunnies and butterflies. It is a hard place, filled with ogres, goblins, orcs, evil PC's, good PC's, lawful pc's chaotic pc's. And one should never take IC happenings in an OOC fashion, though that will happen on occassion. The best advice has already been given...hop on IRC, get to know what is happening in the servers, find out what sort of character would be most successful. Playing what you WANT to play, weather that be a Wizard of Kossuth on Moonshaes or an illiterate criminal half orc on TSM, may not be the most successful plan. Some give/take is necessary sometimes for the meshing process. That said, if any new players have questions about how to go about meshing, I hear Basilica has done a fine job of it...perhaps ask some successful new players how they managed it?

[dergon darkhelm]

"Freedom to choose your friends" is a poor excuse for bullying new members. And bullying new members is surely detrimental to the community as a whole. Simple as that.

Well, I wouldn't want to play with anyone who was bullying me. I'd probably hop server.

If someone is feeling harassed they need to speak to the Player Admin and/or his/her henchmans. .

I don't know anything about the precipitating event/events here, but if I was a *new* player and had anything resembling a negative interaction I would just say "Go f*ck yourself, ALFA" and leave. There are other communities. We can not sit back and expect a new guy that logs in and meets a couple of a**holes in game to say "Oh, I guess I'll try Baldur's Gate instead and contact the associate EADM."

I would beg all of you ---- BE nice to the new people!!!

[Castano]

yes ty dergon. Not everyone will be as good of an RPer as you are today people...I personally know several new people, who are now old people who sucked at RP when they joined. They couldn't sort out meta, they farmed etc. who are now good members here. You have to remember that there are very few RP communities out there, most other games are full of meta and cheese these days, so most new folks will need some help.

[danielmn]

yes ty dergon. Not everyone will be as good of an RPer as you are today people...I personally know several new people, who are now old people who sucked at RP when they joined. They couldn't sort out meta, they farmed etc. who are now good members here. You have to remember that there are very few RP communities out there, most other games are full of meta and cheese these days, so most new folks will need some help.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/guide

Exsists for a reason. Unfortuneatly, we no longer have the OAS2 where this sort of stuff was gone over with new players, as it was deemed a waist of resources. That being such, we have to revert to technical documentation of what is expected. Beyond that, yes we should strive IG to let new players know what is and is not appropriate...even 4-5 times if that is what it takes.

[Swift]

It's exactly what led to this discussion. I tell you that two different new players who do not know each other AND others who are not new, complained on the same group of people. How you would explain that if not exactly on how t-ice put it?

Because I got both sides of the story. Both sides were at at fault in different ways. As EADM of the server in question, it would concern me if new players were being outright rejected. That is not what occurred.

The group did not outright reject any new players. Efforts were made from both sides but miscommunication and the fact that the players simply didn't know how the others played led to what happened.

[maxcell]

forums ftl

Anyhow, it seems after reading this entire thread, from an outside viewpoint that people involved on both sides of this issue:

a. recognize now (if not immediately then) that something occurred in which people were angered and or hurt

b. understand that in a venue that while remaining the best electronic emulation, still lacks some nuances that are contained in a face to face table top experience where you are sitting in a room with folks while you RP your character.

c. offered suggestions, information, and scenarios where everyone could move forward from this instance and back to enjoying the time ig

So let's do that, let's take a quick moment to reflect on what it may have been like to be a person on the other side of the issue, whether we agree with it or not, and then
let's move on and get back to playing with a little boost to our wisdom stats for future interactions.

Thank you for your time, and now, back to my beer.

[kiyoti]

+1 maxcell

[Burt]

Any njubs come to Skaug I promise to PK them in the most welcoming fashion.

[CloudDancing]

As we found for a brief Rennisance of player vairety (and challenges) during the "Something Awful" players joining us in March-April-May; the more players we have, the less "clique" issues become a problem because factions can naturally "find" each other through travel and experimentation.

One of the biggest challenges i've had is the constant blending and leeway certain very specific alignments are given. I spoke with Randomrper last night to this effect; after once watching a lawful good devout character who had all reasons (and ability) to kill a very evil character in a very "mano e' mano" fashion, knew that character had done evil and reprehensible things, just chat amicably (if not tensely) and walk away.

The overall effect of this constant "niceness" and fear of the players "meta nice" response vs the IC imperatives to CvC in some cases have allowed evil, marked and apparent evil to fest and grow to a proportion that good SHOULD do something about it. It has caused rippling effects through out every Dm's plotlines and rippling effects that have torn apart and demoralized factions throughout the servers.

So the question is, can we trust our players to stay in character, not do meta things, and be true to the moment AND not seem to be a "clique?"

[danielmn]

Is that anything like getting stabbed in the back, then having a LN swat the stabber with a rolled up newspaper?

[t-ice]

The overall effect of this constant "niceness" and fear of the players "meta nice" response vs the IC imperatives to CvC in some cases have allowed evil, marked and apparent evil to fest and grow to a proportion that good SHOULD do something about it.

The other side of this coin being that before the LG person came smiting down in his duel, or called in The Law, in fairness the reprehensible evil person should have been given the chance to sneak into the LG person's bedroom and murder the witness in his sleep, no? DM attention for that possibility likely wasn't there, so how fair and non-meta is it to smite down when the 2 PCs happen to meet on the road IG, and the level difference of the PCs is known? Would the LG PC act the same if the players knew the evil PC was two levels above the good than below?

And doesn't that lead to a place where every PC just has to be good - or isolate to a clique? There should be a chance to play evil succesfully - while giving the smite to that special brand of "stupid evil" aligned PCs who just can't stop gleefully broadcasting how deliciously evil they are.

Moral of the story I suppose is, sometimes it *is* good to just look the other way, and let other PCs follow their plotlines while you do yours, and not entangle them. If the result of entanglement is just death, woe and killed fun, that is. Just having a good idea someone has done "awful things", you don't need to jump the sword to make it your PC's problem IC - unless they were done to the PC and her interests. Even if it's the reality at hand IG, doesn't force you to make it the inevitable reality IC to your PC.

But none of these things affect new players. New characters aren't "known to be evil and reprehensible", unless, see the "too-stupid-to-live evil" alignment above.

[wvincenti]

It's a challenge to say the least Cloud.
I found some rationalizations and some mechanical aids over the years that helped though.

Not everyone is going to enjoy RPing a PC who is a bit oblivious and innocent, but that's an option that I'm good at.

Drow: So how does an elven PC not start a fight on sight with a Drow?
Fear was the best rationalization I could come up with. I agreed with Mikayla and expected surface Drow to be rather spectacularly lethal and that made it easy for me to hesitate and talk when my PC was probably itching to start a fight.

On the mechanical side there is the sap (subdual damage). As it was set up in NWN1/ALFA you'd do subdual damage against PCs and regular damage against NPCs & monsters. (I know it's scripted differently now.) I was rarely involved with CvC over the years, but the few times I was made an impression on me. Leaving subdual damage on at all times let me relax to a certain extent about being bombarded with cries of foul if one of my PCs had to attack another PC. It also left me the option of RPing the capture of a PC in game on the odd chance that was an option.

Changing the subdual damage back to something close to what it was in NWN1/ALFA would help. Giving DMs the freedom to resurrect PCs accidentally killed when they should've been knocked out or just beaten to the ground would help too.

-Bill

So the question is, can we trust our players to stay in character, not do meta things, and be true to the moment AND not seem to be a "clique?"