Crafting

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fluffmonster
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Post by fluffmonster »

Zelk wrote:...and you get 60.58 days put into the weapon. Add ALFA time compression and it's an OOC week.
We compress in-game time, but macro time follows the calendar. It is right now getting towards late summer in Faerun. In between, no matter what the actual applied rule is there's a whole lot of fudging to get that item in a real week.

Crafting always sounds nice, but to keep it from breaking things you have to take all of the in-game value out of it. When people do it for money, things start to go bad.
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Post by Veilan »

Without needing to make crafting lucrative, I think it already has one sweet bait: When you are the one creating your item, your skillpoints pay off in that you have actual choice about your character's itemisation. Whether you smith a bastard-sword, a two-hander or a longsword is entirely in your hands, and DMs might just be more inclined to let you find a wizard to enchant that weapon. In any case, you have more gear control than usual - remember, in ALFA going somewhere ordering exactly this, that and that shouldn't happen very often - and that's, apart from the roleplay and story, a good incentive, especially if you have some exotic needs in gear choice.
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Post by dob85y »

The time thing is a fairly easy thing to get around, all you have to do is have a "crafting zone" that a player enters into when they choose to craft an item. Simlar to the death plane, they must stay in that place for the required amount of crafting tme in game days, and at the end when they leave they are awarded the item if the checks are successful. Have it so that characters time elapses while they are offline so crafting can take place, at a realistic rate, and it also adds a certian value to crafted items hen real time is spent away from other persuits such as adventuring or drinking with friends.

Make it so if the character leaves the crafting zone before the alloted time is up the crafting automaticly fails and all ingredients are lost or at least kept until they can start again.
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Post by Rick7475 »

AmarSldstill wrote:Please Direct your attention to the Crafting, Caravan, and Trade forum.

At last notice, standards there were submitted for DMA approval (about a year and a half ago?) and were never responded to.

That is where a more permanent and reliable crafting system currently stands in ALFA.

:D

If someone wants to reforge the Crafting team, I will volunteer to sit on it.


Sorry Amar, that crafting forum is absolutely useless. All talk and no action.

I am taking action here, scripting, writing, and doing.
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Post by Mayhem »

The issue, Rick, is something as contraversial as crafting really does need to be handled in an agreed, cross-server consistent fashion, not just thrown in unilaterally in a fashion that seems like a good idea at the time.

That sort of action is what got ALFA NWN1 servers into such a mess...

Look at the propsed crafting system in the crafting thread, see what ideas where had - they may have had ideas that you did not. Then badger the standards team constantly (or join it and take charge) until they give you the go ahead to implement crafting. But seriously, I strongly advise against unilateral action.
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Post by Mayhem »

Before it ground to a halt, this was the Mundane Item Crafting System that was going to be Beta'd in the WD server.

http://www.alandfaraway.org/phpbbforum/ ... sc&start=0

It seemed failry popular and avoided many of the concerns that crafting usually produces, whilst still alowing it to take place.

Since the WD Beta test of this system seems to have evaporated, perhaps you could have a look and set it up as a beta crafting system in TSM.
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Post by Brokenbone »

I guess if I'm catching Veilan's point above, crafting can mean "getting something unique as the output", whether we're talking about mundane or magic stuff.

That's seldom been an issue in NWN1 for those willing to treat DMs like customer service staff. "I have X gold, give me an item with Y list of powers." It's also seldom been an issue in NWN1 for those willing to roleplay through the search for a master crafter with a DM, do them some favors, build a relationship, and sort of "quest" towards the privilege of buying something from them. It's probably an issue for those who don't feel DMs should bother with those requests, or if one's too meek to share their goals, intimidated by the DMs, or whatever... since, you know, they don't ask, could be any reason why not.

I was under the impression that "custom looks and feels" of stuff were gladly imported in NWN2, especially given the shortage of pallette choices that presumably exist for such a young game. The assumption being "yes, a smith can use pretty dyes and spiffy up ugly armor so that your PC feels sexier in it, and the smith will do it all off camera because it is terribly boring to do otherwise."

I guess if people want to blow skillpoints possibly better used "staying alive" on discount gear creation, in the abstract, that sounds okay. The normal layers of ALFA rules about twinking I guess can come into play, if it was recognized that level 1 PCs were swimming in masterwork arms and armor. Probably the highest value output of at least arms & armor crafting is masterwork full plate, 1650gp, and as the normal rule of thumb is that a fellow needs to spend 50% of that as cost, I guess you could get into a situation where someone could make up to 825gp per RL week, give or take, if they found a sucker willing to pay full retail. Even if they sold it at 1000gp (making a small 175gp profit), it means the purchaser has expended that 1000gp, saving a lot which can be spent on other pursuits (dozen healing potions maybe). Still, it's only full plate which is this "dramatic" an output, I guess though that if you start blending in special materials, maybe you could end up in other crazy "roll a die, make thousands of gold" scenarios.

Anyhow, the above thoughts were limited to "crafting" as in "making stuff in the appropriate work environment." It's also limited to "mundane" crafting, as while some magic crafting (potions / scrolls) could easily go into a fair "click it and get it" system, items worth over 1000gp typically take one-day-per-thousand to craft, so "clicking" may not be appropriate.

"Raw materials gathering" is probably a different topic, and where peoples' fears of GRINDING probably are most prominent. Grinding resources doesn't always require skillpoints, it requires time and sometimes risk taking. Bashing rocks for "ore." Picking daisies and other stuff for exotic potions, inks, whatever. Skinning animals to eventually cure hides. Maybe leave that to the NPC end... PCs waltzing into mines (which presumably are owned by merchant costers, dwarven clans, whatever) may make no sense in even a fantasy economy. Picking herbs from the forest, well, after two weeks of PCs scouring the woods for such, make 'em all extinct until next year. Hunting may be the same, every hide bearing animal for 100 miles around ends up dead in two weeks if their hide is worth 1gp. Odds are no crafts are so extremely wood-intensive that you'll deforest an entire region of Faerun making, say, masterwork arrows, but hey... a solo PC chopping down a 2 ton tree and trying to drag it back to town since it's worth 1gp might be funny to see.

I think I would recommend treating the topics of crafting, and "getting materials" as separate, since D&D treats it that way as well in most cases. That is where the abstract "half the value of the finished goods" thing comes in. Someone who wants to make a 500gp suit of armor mysteriously spends 250gp in the process, as opposed to breaking it down to "x% of cost on tools/facilities wear and tear, y% on materials like iron, coal, brass, leather, polishes, whatever, z% on miscellaneous." The costs are an abstraction, and it doesn't become "230gp" because you mined 10gp worth of raw iron ore with your own hands, spending another 10gp smelting / refining. That is, no part of the "deal" involves discounting the already "half rate" crafting cost. Even if it did, iron is worth 1sp / pound in Faerun if we use PnP rules, and this is the stuff ready to use... odds are raw iron ore would be worth a tenth that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wea ... rthancoins)

So if you wanted to make a 50lb suit of masterwork full plate, I guess 50lb of iron would be worth a mighty 5gp... if someone really desperately needed the 825gp cost to fall to 820gp, themselves working a week in a mine and smelting facility, they're playing fantasy monopoly as opposed to D&D. Probably our "all gold" economy doesn't help much either.

Anyhow, I guess the net of this last is that "gathering" can be divided from "crafting", D&D has good rules for crafting, but not a lot on "going out and picking flowers / mining ore / chopping down trees" etc., except for tradegoods price tables, and "Profession (job title)" skills. The crafting of arms and armor one can take pride in is probably where the RP goodness is at anyhow. PCs slugging away for days in a heavily scripted mine to create a maximum 5gp discount on someone's heavy armor-making efforts, that's nuts. Skinning, herb gathering and everything else would probably be even lower profit than iron mining, don't have a price handy for a square yard of hides (maybe Arms & Equipment does), but odds are it's less than iron, and herbs are probably an abstract thing for the "Brew Potion" feat, again, whether they're part of the 50% market price abstract cost, I guess a DM could give a goldpiece off the price or so. Again, if "bringing your own iron" gives you 1/165th off in price of full plate (.006%), maybe "bringing some herbs" can give you 1/165th off the price of a cure light wounds potion (call it a 15 copper piece discount on a 25gp cost).

Raw materials just aren't worth much in D&D unless they're like, Mithral or Darkwood or whatever... finished goods are the stuff people want, and blow skillpoints to get if desperately desired.

PS - went longer than I intended, but I still hope I helped draw a bright line between "gathering copper/silver value materials being worthless", and "actually creating stuff being worthwhile."
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Post by Veilan »

Brokenbone wrote:I guess if I'm catching Veilan's point above, crafting can mean "getting something unique as the output", whether we're talking about mundane or magic stuff.
Yes, but more to the degree that you are the one who got the final say over its looks and dimensions.
Brokenbone wrote:That's seldom been an issue in NWN1 for those willing to treat DMs like customer service staff. "I have X gold, give me an item with Y list of powers."
This is unfortunate, and highly inappropriate (from both sides of the deal). While you certainly may get something made to order, NPC crafters (magic or mundane) should have limited capacities (especially if they are as highly qualified), not always understand 1:1 what you're getting at since communication should be IC, and may require a personal rapproch first. In short, it should be nothing available to custom-tailor every gear slot.



But to the rest, yeah, personally for me, the "coolness" factor should be among the big motivators, right with storyline, entertainment and rp value (sketchy thing - basically everything has RP value from a certain standpoint, however, I tend to mean engaging rp that entertains and involves several people and lifts their enjoyment of the game).
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Post by Rick7475 »

Mayhem wrote:The issue, Rick, is something as contraversial as crafting really does need to be handled in an agreed, cross-server consistent fashion, not just thrown in unilaterally in a fashion that seems like a good idea at the time.

That sort of action is what got ALFA NWN1 servers into such a mess...

Look at the propsed crafting system in the crafting thread, see what ideas where had - they may have had ideas that you did not. Then badger the standards team constantly (or join it and take charge) until they give you the go ahead to implement crafting. But seriously, I strongly advise against unilateral action.
Yep yep, been there done that over and over again. I have volunteered to do a crafting system time and time again. But then this happens, it needs to be discussed again. And again. And again. And nobody ever agrees and it never gets done. We had three systems at one time, and no one could agree on one. Then we had a Joe, who had a system and wanted it in, but then he got kicked out.

So, here we are again. Waiting and waiting and waiting for a unilateral system that everyone likes. It has been 4 years and still there is no system that everyone likes.

People have given up.

So I am saying I can throw together a series of statics that simulate a crafting system utilizing some mining scripts and an anvil and other stuff to have players make some items (weapons and armor) themselves, possibly to sell.

But if I need to discuss it again in a long dead forum to get an impossible consensus with another 4 year wait, then I am simply going to write some scripts, not call it a crafting system, and call it a bunch of statics, and make it available for who ever else wants it. Then when you decide to have a crafting system, and 4 years have passed, I can remove my scripts and replace them with the crafting system. Until then, players can have fun with the static scripts that allow them to make some stuff and maybe even sell their creations.
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Post by JaydeMoon »

The time thing is a fairly easy thing to get around, all you have to do is have a "crafting zone" that a player enters into when they choose to craft an item. Simlar to the death plane, they must stay in that place for the required amount of crafting tme in game days, and at the end when they leave they are awarded the item if the checks are successful. Have it so that characters time elapses while they are offline so crafting can take place, at a realistic rate, and it also adds a certian value to crafted items hen real time is spent away from other persuits such as adventuring or drinking with friends.

Make it so if the character leaves the crafting zone before the alloted time is up the crafting automaticly fails and all ingredients are lost or at least kept until they can start again.
Right, this is exactly an issue. "Oh, you want to make a MW Sword? Please step inside the crafting hall and do not leave it for 9 RL days, KTHXBAI!".

Rick,

I think at this point, ALFA from top to bottom is interested in having some sort of crafting system.

It just wants one that works, is realistic, and follows D&D rules on crafting.

All that 'useless' discussion is about how to make it happen. Thus far no one has done so. If you think you have the 'answer', then by all means, tell us.
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Post by White Warlock »

K.I.S.S.


Make items crafted worth 0 value to NPCs (i.e., not sellable to NPC merchants). Items can still be sold to PCs, and that is where profit is possible. Making it this way also ensures limited 'growth' in ingame wealth.

Rather than substantially increasing ingame wealth, it would be a minor increase (savings from buying an item made by a PC, as opposed to buying from an npc merchant), whilst the majority of it would be that of 'redistribution of wealth.'

More important, however, by presenting it this way, it not only provides alternative activities for PCs besides 'farming,' it also increases PC to PC interaction. I.e., more roleplay by creating a merchandising angle for PCs.

Again... K.I.S.S. Overcomplicate, and not only does it become more work for Rick to make this happen, but it becomes unwieldy to monitor and manage.
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Post by Mayhem »

Rick7475 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:The issue, Rick, is something as contraversial as crafting really does need to be handled in an agreed, cross-server consistent fashion, not just thrown in unilaterally in a fashion that seems like a good idea at the time.

That sort of action is what got ALFA NWN1 servers into such a mess...

Look at the propsed crafting system in the crafting thread, see what ideas where had - they may have had ideas that you did not. Then badger the standards team constantly (or join it and take charge) until they give you the go ahead to implement crafting. But seriously, I strongly advise against unilateral action.
Yep yep, been there done that over and over again. I have volunteered to do a crafting system time and time again. But then this happens, it needs to be discussed again. And again. And again. And nobody ever agrees and it never gets done. We had three systems at one time, and no one could agree on one. Then we had a Joe, who had a system and wanted it in, but then he got kicked out.

So, here we are again. Waiting and waiting and waiting for a unilateral system that everyone likes. It has been 4 years and still there is no system that everyone likes.

People have given up.

So I am saying I can throw together a series of statics that simulate a crafting system utilizing some mining scripts and an anvil and other stuff to have players make some items (weapons and armor) themselves, possibly to sell.

But if I need to discuss it again in a long dead forum to get an impossible consensus with another 4 year wait, then I am simply going to write some scripts, not call it a crafting system, and call it a bunch of statics, and make it available for who ever else wants it. Then when you decide to have a crafting system, and 4 years have passed, I can remove my scripts and replace them with the crafting system. Until then, players can have fun with the static scripts that allow them to make some stuff and maybe even sell their creations.
The forum is only dead pecause the people with the skills to implement the beta-approved system didn't do it. Be that person, and nobody can object as building a system to those guidelines has already been approved, just never implemented.

Be the implementor, and be the saviour of ALFAs crafting without running the risk of having your own system censured *after* you've spent your valuable time on it.

That's my suggestion, anyway. Of course, I'm just a pleb with no authority.
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Post by Nalo Jade »

Rick ... put together a proposal and send it to the DMA for review.
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Post by Rick7475 »

This is my proposal Nalo. No BS'ing, if I am going to volunteer my time to do this, it is the way I feel comfortable with.

My crafting plan is simple. It combines the DM Guide and my own experience as a college professor.


There are three skills: Craft Weapon, Craft Armor, and Craft Alchemy.

One skill (or more depending on how many crafting skills you want) would have to build up to at least 5 ranks. This would cover the mundane experimentation and apprenticeship. You also must be level 3 and have a license.

To be a crafter, you need to pass a test and be given a license (a DC check against the skill). There will be master crafters who can grant a license. Each test costs money and can be taken as many times as the PC likes until they pass.

Crafting anything would require a recipe document, which could only be acquired for a price from a Master Crafter.

Once you have a licence and a recipe, you can craft. The recipe can be used over and over again.

To craft, you will need the appropriate items listed on the recipe. They may be purchased from vendors are acquired from raw materials somewhere on the server.

Once you have all the components, you need a crafting machine. The use of the crafting machine will of course, have a cost. You pay the owner, he checks your licsence, and gives you a token. Then you select the dialog on the machine and choose 'build' or 'craft' or whatever. The script searches your inventory for the appropriate items and does a skill check. All items disappear whether or not you pass the skill check. If the skill check passes, you have your item. The higher your skill, the better the chance to create.


The following skill checks work for the following trades:

Craft Armor: Armor, leather, clothing, shields, cloaks, bracers, helms, belts, boots, etc

Craft Weapon: melee weapons, ranged weapons, ammunition.

Craft Alchemy: potions, jewelry (ie rings, amulets)

No merchant will buy back potions. Other merchants buy back at 50%. I plkan on creation costs (or operating costs) to be at least 50% or more. So no PC's will make money selling to merchants.


Thge amount of stuff that can be crafted depends on the number of recipes that I create.

All items crafted will be higher than MW. In other words, they will all be E1. The DC will be fairly high. The economy can be easily adjusted by reducing the supply of raw materials.

The start up costs will be high. The operating costs will be considerable until you are good at it. You can charge whatever you want.

I can also bundle all of this into an erf complete with guild masters etc.

This is the only system I will build. If it is rejected, well, hopefully someone else wants to build one.
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Post by Nalo Jade »

Did you submit it to the DMA? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it probably would be a good idea to PM it to him. <ignore if you already sent it in> :)
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