Planetouched DM vote result

[Lusipher]

You want Cutting edge then Avlis kicks our asses. Not to tout their project but they have an amazing group of folks who actually *gasp* get along with each other and work well together. They have folks who can actually build, model, and code. A lot of their work is up on the Vault for folks to check out and a lot of it is being specially twinked for their NWN2 PW. They are using a ton of special classes, races, and the like. Instead of sitting here debating shit over and over for months they are actually putting things into their game. Avlis isnt ALFA thats for sure. They dont have a lot of servers with different teams and different opinons on everything. They work well together because they are all of the same mind and want the same things. ALFA isnt like that.

You have many here with different opinions of how this place should be and its always been the bane of the project. You cant keep rotating what should be and shouldnt be ALFA. I would love to see ALFA just chuck the whole Admin thing and get a core group of folks who want to DM/Build and forget all this politic nonsense that consumes this project and stagnats it.

ALFA was great once upon a time, but its become a nightmare anymore. I want this project to succeed so bad sometimes and then I see such a stupid move like the ones the DMs made by voting against Planetouched races. To me, it makes me think the DMs here are not all that creative, lazy, and cant handle dealing with new ideas.

This vote further pushes ALFA down the totem poll. You further cull your playerbase and drive new players away. We have been a niche project for too long. I know some folks love ALFA being their personal playground, but your stubborness and selfishness have caused this project a lot of harm instead of good.

I just wish for once the people who run this place would do something smart for a change. A lot of us who have been around and still for some damn reason come back and check things out here just shake our heads at how this place is ran and just wont get a clue.

Wake up ALFA. Change. Be creative. Bring in new blood.

Your playerbase and NWN players in general are going elsewhere.

[indio]

They have folks who can actually build, model, and code.

They sound truly amazing.

[Lusipher]

and their not asshats..imagine that

[Rick7475]

I've played Avlis on and off for years. We have done and can do much better.

[Thangorn]

I think the player poll is still pertinent on this one... if a majority of players still want planetouched, I think we should take that as a good indicator to bite the bullet and roll with them.

Surely its going to take more work to take the planetouched races out of the game when they already ship with the game? Seems to me like we are making more work for ourselves not implementing them.

At any rate.. if the player poll comes up that players want them I'll throw my hat in to the ring to help get them implemented in the most effective way for the community.

Still kinda think its a moot point since we need servers to play planetouched characters on..

[Mayhem]

I want this project to succeed so bad sometimes and then I see such a stupid move like the ones the DMs made by voting against Planetouched races.

Well, they only edged it out by one vote. If only there were some way you could have been eligible to vote, you could have swung it in your favoured direction.

[witch]

I think the player poll is still pertinent on this one... if a majority of players still want planetouched, I think we should take that as a good indicator to bite the bullet and roll with them.

Thangorn actually has a valid point in that.

What if said playerbase votes like 90% in favor. Because whatever reason they may have.

Are we going to say "too bad Alfa aint for you, find another place" ?

or " DM's dont want you too play one so shove it?"

in a way this is also offending to the playerbase who SURPRISE are still needed to play NWN.. unless ofcourse DM's want empty servers..

Since it means basically means "WE dont give a damm what the playerbase wants"
which based on the DM poll numbers is atleast 4 times bigger im guessing.

(yes im saying it bluntly i know)

So if this is a community.. we should listen to the majority right?....

and then the minority can decide if they like the new path or not.. be they dm, admin or player..

or does the minority decide?

[Veilan]

I suppose then we're saying that ALFA is probably enjoyable as is, considering those theoretical 90% are here and actively playing.

The gain is minor increase in fun for some (I'd include me, I did have fun with PTs in other campaigns / PnP groups etc., both as DM and as player... I'm more concerned about them in a PW format, though, were a lot of things happen off-screen as opposed to 1 DM - 4 player things). The drawback here is burdening DMs and being inconsiderate to their feelings what it would place on them and ask of them.

ALFA only isn't for you if you're not having fun. If you say "zomg I must play planetouched or I won't have any fun here", then, well, perhaps the project really isn't for you. If you say "meh, I may have perhaps more fun with PTs but I can deal without having them if the DMs don't wanna", then ALFA apparently is a good place for you anyway, and you're apparently quite considerate to the concerns of your providers.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Not to be too contrary, but I don't think that's quite the model of decisionmaking that we should be looking for - though it is frequently brought out in ALFA. There are two distinct phases - the flirting stage and the dating stage. And they have very different dynamics.

In the flirting stage, people are making a decision how/where to commit their time and energy. Obstacles, or barriers to entry of any form, prevent people from trying us out in the first place. Now, one person's obstacle ("I can't play planetouched, that sucks") is another person's draw ("Thank gawd I don't have to play with a half-dozen half-demons"), but unless the point of the policy is specifically to exclude those who see such things as obstacles (or allow in those who see it as a draw), then it's an inefficient policy. We're inadvertently leaving people out who might otherwise commit.

Next, in the dating stage, there's a commitment on both sides and the question is whether it works. Here, there's give and take - ALFA won't bend to whatever any member wants - we've all got to play in the sandbox together. Here, you might realistically follow Alara's plan - which is that people who will be stinkers if they don't get their way probably aren't healthy for us under the no-<redacted> rule.

However, those two things don't necessarily correlate. The people who can't be arsed to fill out an application are not one-for-one those who wouldn't play nice. It is possible for individuals not to look at the policy in isolation, but as a sign of something else - for example, not allowing genasi means that they're obsessive control freaks or somesuch. It doesn't have to be accurate - perception is all that matters. All of us, when confronted with complex decisions with many choices and not enough information, rely on more or less illogical means to arrive at decisions. I ruled out applying to law firms whose "law students" section on websites was spartan, feeling that was an indication of their lack of commitment to a summer program. Is that right? Hell no. But it's the best I had at the time.

If people want to make the decision based on workload or time demands or other such things, that's fine. Personally, I feel there are some fixed costs in figuring out the local canon (and if that fails making it up, you can always change it later with IC events), but the DMs can play them as only slightly exotic if they so choose. The "takes extra time" contention struck me as sort of weak-willed - I as DM can choose how and on whom I spend my time, to hell with the red-skinned guy. At that point, then we are in the dating stage anyway - if players don't like the fact that they can't be the instant center of attention because they chose an exotic race, then you're fully justified in hitting the mute button.

I understand the theory of why people don't want planetouched. I just think in practice things would reach a steady-state a lot easier than other people think. And the PR draw is something that could be more focal; the in-game effects can be handled by dealing with the characters appropriately. We're never going to be like some other places and draw simply because of weird template lovin', so is the incremental draw of planetouched relevant? I don't know - but my experience is that a lot of minor things can become a big barrier awfully quickly in the flirting stage. And, seeing as it wouldn't be my work or effort to make it happen though, I'll go bloody well pipe down.

[Inaubryn]

Here's my biggest issue with ALFA, which some people have touched on in so many words in this thread. ALFA is inconsistent as hell and it's extreme as hell. There is no middle ground here. There are people who sit on one end of the spectrum and those that sit on the other. Is ALFA doin' a better job of gettin' to that middle ground? Yeah, I guess. But the fact is... This very optionless poll, sorry, Rotku, that's what it was, tells us one thing. It tells us that a few people here in ALFA that are planning to build, because I've seen more people talking about building than actual DMing, don't want to deal with planetouched. Which is extraordinarily inconsistent. Because, I don't care how you put it, unless your region was torn asunder and enslaved by planetouched for centuries, the playable underdark races are and should be much more of a pain in the ass to DM. Several people here have already stated as much.

DnD is supposed to be about DMs giving players options. As a DM, if your players verbalize a want or need, it is your responsibility to listen to them and weigh the real ramifications of allowing certain things into your campaign. Because, I don't give a damn what the DM wants, if the players get up and leave the table and don't come back... you're sittin' there by yourself with your Cheetos and Mountain Dew.

But, as usual, ALFA didn't even bother with the players. Let's see what some of the DMs want and we'll go from there. What kinda lopsided, inconsistent philosophy is that. Everybody jabbers on about this community and everybody went through great pains and great lengths to chunk the old Admin set up for this new democratic process. But, then we go and make a poll that affects the entirety of ALFA but only poll a few people. Back before most of you were here we had this same argument. But then the Admin could unilaterally make a decision with no polls and votes and such. Did we rail against not including planetouched? Many of us did, alas they were left out.

But ALFA was new as was NWN and all of us were eager to get hopping. There were over 1000 people signed up as members and a good 75% of that was active on the boards and soon thereafter in the game. Now ALFA is not new. It's old hat. Many people, many good and talented people have left this place and moved on. We've got to ask ourselves how come some of the best DMs and players have simply walked out. Is the game old? Sure. Is ALFA old? In terms of an online gaming community, not at all. But, yet these people have gone. Hell, some people that are still here have minimized their roles to the point that they hopefully aren't affected by all of the mess that goes on here. Why? Why is it that people even need to do this? Why do people feel the need to leave?

It's because of things like this. Sure it's only a microcosm of the problem at-large, but this is certainly part of the reason. We keep killing off the vision that was ALFA bit by bit. Can we truly afford to preemptively cut off current and potential players with fear-based waved of the hand? And, that's why most of the people voted no, let's be honest. Nobody has any real world data on how planetouched affect anything, which leads me back to the inconsisteny thing.

We know how drow and duergar affect things. And many here will admit, it's a helluva lot more involved to DM these races, especially on the surface. Talkin' about PC reactions. And, you tell me to be careful what I wish for Rotku? I wish ALFA would be consistent. If we're gonna dump a race based on the fact that we think it would be too much work for the DMs, which I don't buy, let's dump the races that we KNOW are too much work. Because, let's face it... drow spank planetouched hands down in this whole too much work category. Not to mention that people's idea of too much work is jumping into an NPC and saying, "Get the hell out of here, ya demonic cur, or you blue bastard, or whatever, to address a Player/PC that you SHOULD be DMing anyway.

People talk about how this would take away from other players if a DM has to leave other players to play out NPC reactions. That's stupid. I'm sorry. As a DM, you should be makin' every effort to DM every player that logs onto your server, even if that's just sayin', Hey I'm kinda busy with a group right now. I'll try to jump over and give you some face time in a bit. That's our responsibilty as DMs not a player's privilege to get our attention. Anytime a player ever logged onto Westgate, I at least spoke to them in a tell. If I couldn't get to them I let them know, otherwise they were getting DM attention, and I don't care what they were playing.

So, yeah Rotku... if we're throwin' out planetouched, let's be consistent and throw out drow, svirfs, duergar. People say that I can't make that argument, because we know what NPC reactions are to them. Yep, we do. But it still has to be played out, right? I guarantee people in Silverymoon, which appears to be in danger of being the first server up, have no qualms with planetouched. I don't remember the wards of Silverymoon including antipathy to planetouched. I do recall it has antipathy to drow and evil underdark races, though.

So, I vote no on Proposition Drow. Let's do an optionless poll for that. All the DMs who voted no against planetouched should now vote no for drow and duergar and svirfs. And, I'm dead serious about that. At least it'll be consistent.

Well, that was long and I'm not bothering to edit for grammar, spelling, punctuation, or syntax. Bye.

Edit: Dammit. My post was longer than T-Dawgs? Yeah... I've been here way too long.

[Mord]

I think the player poll is still pertinent on this one... if a majority of players still want planetouched, I think we should take that as a good indicator to bite the bullet and roll with them.

Thangorn actually has a valid point in that.

What if said playerbase votes like 90% in favor. Because whatever reason they may have.

Are we going to say "too bad Alfa aint for you, find another place" ?

or " DM's dont want you too play one so shove it?"

in a way this is also offending to the playerbase who SURPRISE are still needed to play NWN.. unless ofcourse DM's want empty servers..

Since it means basically means "WE dont give a damm what the playerbase wants"
which based on the DM poll numbers is atleast 4 times bigger im guessing.

(yes im saying it bluntly i know)

So if this is a community.. we should listen to the majority right?....

and then the minority can decide if they like the new path or not.. be they dm, admin or player..

or does the minority decide?

To avoid careening into a lengthy diatribe like *some* people, I will say only that the DM's run the game, and they are the ones who have to deal with the logistics of fitting such player characters as planetouched into whatever adventure, plot or session they are running. All players do is play, they don't have to worry about these things, so it's only natural that the ones having to do the work get to decide if they actually wish to deal with the extra hassle or keep things simpler.

Now go get me a sandwich!

[Lusipher]

And its these DMs who will drive off the player and then who will you have in your little sandbox? DMs arent there to control the players their there to help the players along with nudges. Taking away something that adds flavor is just silly. Its uncreative, lazy, and shows the Dms want to be control freaks. People arent here because of the DMs their here because of the game world and what their PCs can do in it. I think a lot of Dms forget that and think their the reason folks play here.

[psycho_leo]

People arent here because of the DMs their here because of the game world and what their PCs can do in it.

The fact that DM draughts always result in players going to other servers show that you're wrong.

Ultimately DMs need the players as much as players need DMs, but it's only fair to agree that DMs have to greatest work load of the two.

[Veilan]

the playable underdark races are and should be much more of a pain in the ass to DM. Several people here have already stated as much.

But then, if it was up to me, planetouched would be allowed and underdark races disallowed.

I think Rotku's sentiment is not entirely without merit.

[Rick7475]

Oh stop blamin the DM's. They don't control what you want to play, they have to accomodate what you want to play into the FR setting of the server area they are DM'ing, no small task if you want to play something that pretty much will mess up the balance and mean forgetting the canon.

People forget this is a FR setting, and that DM's rely on the published canon for guidence, since this is a hard core FR RP'ing setting, not like Avlis or other servers. A lot of matierial we use is 20 years old in some cases.

Let's see, I have the Silver Marches book in front of me .... descended from fiendish blood, well, hell, no Silverymoon for you, it's warded, but, oh wait, no, the they want to be a Tiefling because the DM has to let him play what they want. Oh well, no wards for Silverymoon, then. What other canon can I break?

Well, let's see: Genasi, I searched the entire Silver Marches, nope, no mention of them. Let's try tiefling, nope, not there either. Well, hell, but I am a DM, I have to improvise. Make it up.

Oh look, a Fey'ri walks into Sundabar. Hey, Elven Demonspawn, hey buddy, have a dwarven ale, nice demonic facial features, BTW.

Oh look Frank, an Aasimar just walked into town, all glowing and shit, flapping his wings. Geez, Frank the level 10 Paladin of Tyr, I've never seen you grovel and kneel so much before a level 1 Aasimar straight from Tyr himself.

You know, if DM's have issues, it's not because they are control freak assholes. It is because we have canon to follow, and it is difficult to implement sometimes with a DM cleint, CRPG limitations, and players that expect ALL YOUR ATTENTION right now.

Now, I consider myself to be as accomodating for player needs as I possibly can. I hate Drow, but read my drow thread. And Danubus, when you wanted a place for your Tiamet crew, I spent a month building one on Daggerford working out all the secret areas, tunnels and hideouts, but you couldn't wait a month for an extremely busy HDM who had 20+ players on his server most nights and half a dozen requests to fill. After all that work and scripting.

Yes, as a DM, I would like to accomodate plane-touched players, but I would prefer it not be demanded of me, and I have no idea how to make playing time fun for tiefling in the built up areas of TSF unless I spend a great deal of time on the character concept with the player, where to put him, and how he would interact with other players who may want to kill a tiefling on sight. That is a lot of work for a level 1 PC who might not even survive the first day. Believe, I have been down this road before, setting up specialized scenarios for very specialized classes. And then after all that hard work, being hauled in front of the DMA and being accused of all sorts of BS because the player didn't feel I did a good enough job. Don't believe me? You know what a pain in the ass it is to defend every minute detail of your DM'ing just because someone is pissed off because they don't understand that the DM cleint isn't perfect and don't bother to read how a spell works from the PHB.