DMs DMing A Land Far Away
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Thank you Rots. Can you give an example? you dont need to use names but I would be interested to know why DMs have been previously refused and see whether we have resolved some of those issues already..
On indefinite real life hiatus
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
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FanaticusIncendi
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Gah too much yakity-schmackity for me to keep up with it all here. I'll just address this one point then go back to the toolset:
Now if you want to say that people can be a DM on one server and if at the end of six months they can apply to be a global DM, maybe with approval being some sort of vote amongst DMs and/or HDMs and final say from the DMA...well I could see that.
*shrugs*
We have seen it with applicants on several occasions and the same holds true for DMs. Just because they look good on paper doesn't guarantee that at the end of six months we don't realize there's an issue with them. There are all sorts of examples of this with both players and DMs. I can list off the names but that would be not cool of me.Inaubryn wrote:If a person was seen fit enough to be a DM in ALFA, why shouldn't they be able to DM in all of ALFA?
Now if you want to say that people can be a DM on one server and if at the end of six months they can apply to be a global DM, maybe with approval being some sort of vote amongst DMs and/or HDMs and final say from the DMA...well I could see that.
*shrugs*
Currently otherwise occupied.
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Grand Fromage
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I don't remember all the details since it's been a while, but I refused a couple requests to DM on TSM. I had at least one who flat-out refused to play by the house rules (which were not exactly onerous, I just didn't want a guest screwing up pre-existing storylines), and I had one who I didn't like and didn't want anywhere near my server. I also had lots of DMs who did guest on the server, and went as far as having Vendrin attaching Underdark to the server and running a whole campaign. So, it's not like I was simply against any guests ever, I just occasionally had reason to refuse.Thangorn wrote:Can anyone give an example of when a currently approved DM has requested DM access on a server and has been refused?
Most of the occasions were with a reason similar to what GF said - although many of them for unreasonable... reasons. I know an old HDM of Waterdeep refused to have anyone on who wasn't willing to follow a strict set of rules.Thangorn wrote:Thank you Rots. Can you give an example? you dont need to use names but I would be interested to know why DMs have been previously refused and see whether we have resolved some of those issues already..
This was really one of the big problems I faced when I tried to set up the whole GDM thing, all those years ago. There was a massive sense of server ownership, which resulted in some HDMs simply refusing to have any one on their server they didn't know and trust.
Honestly, I agree with what Inaubyrn is saying. If a DM is good enough to DM on one server, they should bloody well be good enough to DM on all servers - especially with the new training that we've got. The reason, however, why I would say that DMs shouldn't be able to freely DM on all servers is simply due to canon knowledge. It takes up a lot of time just learning enough about a server to properly run a campaign on it and keep up to date with all the on-goings. Try doing this for 5 servers and you've got a slightly difficult task on your hands.
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We are only ever going to have 2 or 3 HDM's in the next year for NWN2, not 15 like we had at one time. I think the 3 HDM's can come to a consensus.
Since we are dealing with probably 3 servers over the next year (at best), knowing the canon should not be that difficult. There is a book on the Silver Marches, for example, that is a quick read (took me an evening, and I enjoyed it).
If I were allowed to be an HDM again, I would have no issue with cross-over DM'ing, and in fact I tried to encourage it on many occasions. I would ask, though, and I think this is reasonable, for a 10 - 15 minute chat with any DM's that want to DM on a server just to get to know them and to let them know the canon resources (expecting them to read up on the canon).
Since we are dealing with probably 3 servers over the next year (at best), knowing the canon should not be that difficult. There is a book on the Silver Marches, for example, that is a quick read (took me an evening, and I enjoyed it).
If I were allowed to be an HDM again, I would have no issue with cross-over DM'ing, and in fact I tried to encourage it on many occasions. I would ask, though, and I think this is reasonable, for a 10 - 15 minute chat with any DM's that want to DM on a server just to get to know them and to let them know the canon resources (expecting them to read up on the canon).
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JaydeMoon
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Indeed, Rotku, that is an issue.
To institute something like this would require some people who were really on their game, and trustworthy.
I would love to see a Global Team that oversees (and works with local teams to implement) canon events and really make the world thrive as a whole. Paranoia and ego are just a small part of keeping that from happening (even though they were the most discussed part here). Another is feasibility... what would it take to assemble a group of trustworthy and reliable guys who knew canon inside out and were willing to devotte the time and energy to such a team, while not getting to play?
I think it's a grand idea, a great thought, wish it could happen, but the reality is that it probably can't.
Though if it were... the time to implement would be from the very start.
And Thang's... I have been denied DM access on certain servers, most recently Daggerdale... reasoning given was that they had plenty of DMs at the time... *shrugs*
Most DM teams that refused me were concerned about the whole Jayde13wt thing (a perception among certain 'tight-fisted' members of ALFA combined with a couple of unbalancing items I gave out because of a general njubishness (e.g. why is Stoneskin 1/day unbalancing when Death Ward 1/day isn't... I know now, but didn't then)). I tried the access on every server thing and was granted access to like, five or six servers (Daggerford, Waterdeep, Skullport, Northern Cormyr, Shadowdale, maybe Silver Marches at the time, I don't remember... GF, did you ever deny me?) and denied on three (Balder's Gate, Daggerdale, The Frozen North), or something like that (I had since been given access to Balder's Gate).
The result for me has been a championing of the standards process, though I still get flak sometimes, and Jayde13wt is a long-standing joke that I take good naturedly.
To institute something like this would require some people who were really on their game, and trustworthy.
I would love to see a Global Team that oversees (and works with local teams to implement) canon events and really make the world thrive as a whole. Paranoia and ego are just a small part of keeping that from happening (even though they were the most discussed part here). Another is feasibility... what would it take to assemble a group of trustworthy and reliable guys who knew canon inside out and were willing to devotte the time and energy to such a team, while not getting to play?
I think it's a grand idea, a great thought, wish it could happen, but the reality is that it probably can't.
Though if it were... the time to implement would be from the very start.
And Thang's... I have been denied DM access on certain servers, most recently Daggerdale... reasoning given was that they had plenty of DMs at the time... *shrugs*
Most DM teams that refused me were concerned about the whole Jayde13wt thing (a perception among certain 'tight-fisted' members of ALFA combined with a couple of unbalancing items I gave out because of a general njubishness (e.g. why is Stoneskin 1/day unbalancing when Death Ward 1/day isn't... I know now, but didn't then)). I tried the access on every server thing and was granted access to like, five or six servers (Daggerford, Waterdeep, Skullport, Northern Cormyr, Shadowdale, maybe Silver Marches at the time, I don't remember... GF, did you ever deny me?) and denied on three (Balder's Gate, Daggerdale, The Frozen North), or something like that (I had since been given access to Balder's Gate).
The result for me has been a championing of the standards process, though I still get flak sometimes, and Jayde13wt is a long-standing joke that I take good naturedly.
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Grand Fromage
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I think there's a more effective approach. Propose a Global Plot, not a Global Team.I would love to see a Global Team that oversees (and works with local teams to implement) canon events and really make the world thrive as a whole.
Global Team has the connotation that an overarching body can just run whatever they want from off-site and ruffles feathers.
A Global Plot approach, proposal by proposal with HDM/Server Team input, with a Plot lead DM to run the Global Plot would seem to me to be a more succesful approach.
The meat of what I am saying: DM A makes a single global plot proposal to the ALFA DM body and gathers input and support for the proposal from the DM teams of the servers involved.
DM A may then gather a team to assist and then go ahead provided he/she already has input and suggested adjustments from the server-side DM teams it affects and a big red rubber stamp from the DMA.
Maybe its a better approach than all global plots coming from a specific group. I reckon we all need to be breaking down beauracracy and keeping stuff simple.
On indefinite real life hiatus
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
In fact,
we should contemplate to capitalize on the close and very productive cooperation of the NWN 2 teams and have them hav a shared DM board for at least the non-player DMs, instead of holing up in their own spots later. That way stories and plots can be made so easily border-spanning, everyone knows what's up, problems can be seen, expertise can be exchanged, and so forth.
Exchange of information really is where we're having some troubles, most people find they actually get along, or at least can work together, once they start talking to each other
.
Up to you guys of course, but I think there's some merit in aspiring to feel more of a family
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we should contemplate to capitalize on the close and very productive cooperation of the NWN 2 teams and have them hav a shared DM board for at least the non-player DMs, instead of holing up in their own spots later. That way stories and plots can be made so easily border-spanning, everyone knows what's up, problems can be seen, expertise can be exchanged, and so forth.
Exchange of information really is where we're having some troubles, most people find they actually get along, or at least can work together, once they start talking to each other
.Up to you guys of course, but I think there's some merit in aspiring to feel more of a family
.The power of concealment lies in revelation.
What is the meat of your proposal here? I dont understand exactly what it is you want to implement..Alara wrote:In fact,
we should contemplate to capitalize on the close and very productive cooperation of the NWN 2 teams and have them hav a shared DM board for at least the non-player DMs, instead of holing up in their own spots later. That way stories and plots can be made so easily border-spanning, everyone knows what's up, problems can be seen, expertise can be exchanged, and so forth.
Exchange of information really is where we're having some troubles, most people find they actually get along, or at least can work together, once they start talking to each other Shocked.
Up to you guys of course, but I think there's some merit in aspiring to feel more of a family Wink.
On indefinite real life hiatus
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
Something that I find very curious here...
We charge the HDM with the ultimate responsibility of quality control. The canon and standards of the HDM's server, along with the behaivor of the DMs, is supposed to be the HDM's responsibility. When something goes wrong, this person is supposed to be there with a beatdown stick to chase off the malefactors, and we've this group of people that wants to take that power away from them.
So, that said, who heads up the GDM team, if the HDM can't chase off a DM that's a poor fit for their server (and, to give a simple example of a good DM somewhere and a bad DM somewhere else -- someone who loves drow plots would work just fine on SD, where drow in the Cormanthor are a real and canonical problem, but I'd promise there'd be a fussing and a feuding if Arabel was attacked by drow.) Our current DMA has to do a fair amount of delegating to keep afloat, and I can't see adding a DM team to keep tabs on improving this situation, and rigging up some kind of "HDM complains to DMA, who reviews case and talks to GDM before action is taken" setup seems like it would be slow and inefficient, while still taking from HDMs their power to keep the quality of their servers that we charge them with.
We charge the HDM with the ultimate responsibility of quality control. The canon and standards of the HDM's server, along with the behaivor of the DMs, is supposed to be the HDM's responsibility. When something goes wrong, this person is supposed to be there with a beatdown stick to chase off the malefactors, and we've this group of people that wants to take that power away from them.
So, that said, who heads up the GDM team, if the HDM can't chase off a DM that's a poor fit for their server (and, to give a simple example of a good DM somewhere and a bad DM somewhere else -- someone who loves drow plots would work just fine on SD, where drow in the Cormanthor are a real and canonical problem, but I'd promise there'd be a fussing and a feuding if Arabel was attacked by drow.) Our current DMA has to do a fair amount of delegating to keep afloat, and I can't see adding a DM team to keep tabs on improving this situation, and rigging up some kind of "HDM complains to DMA, who reviews case and talks to GDM before action is taken" setup seems like it would be slow and inefficient, while still taking from HDMs their power to keep the quality of their servers that we charge them with.
zelk, one way to avoid this is by having a dm on the team to begin with that dm's on the server, but also works with other dms on other servers toward global plots. There really is no spectacular reason to have a global team in and of itself, simply have a dm from each team get together with dms of other teams to formulate an overall plot. Hence, the global forum for dms, to remain in communication. As stated above, all that is needed really is communication between the teams. no reason for dms to dm more than one server, you're simply handing over the reigns of the plot to another dm on another server who is already in the know about what is happening....
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
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JaydeMoon
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Alara is saying we should have a global DM thread where DMs who are not players can go and put their heads together and make up ALFA spanning plots without necessitating the need for a GDM team.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Let's say all the HDMs decide not to be players as well.
Well, now the HDMs can all get together in this forum and talk to eachother about about cross-server plots or global plots, etc. And send exchange students... er DMs over to eachother to facilitate, etc.
HDMs get positive control over what happens on the servers under their care, the community gets awesome cross server campaigns and adventures.
Of course, if memory serves, we had something like this once upon a time, did we not? A forum to encourage cross server plots?
I remember it turned out to be a lot of guys with ideas asking for help and not getting any communication from other teams.
Hopefully that would change with a new environment.
Zelk:
If the GDM thing was instituted, who's to say that from the outset responsibility of quality control is now not shared between the HDM and the GDM team? Again, this whole idea rests on the (likely unattainable) merits of solid and reasonable guys and gals who wouldn't even think about attacking Arabel with Drow.
But whatever, obviously it's dumB and stupid to think ALFA can be trusted to have any quality DMs who know what they are doing and are respectful of realistically running events within the scope of Faerun on a wider level than one or two servers at a time.[/sarcasm]
Anywayz, whatever the reason, it's a fact that without some major adjustments in attitude, this is not something that is feasible, so we move onto ideas that may work towards this goal in other, more palatable ways. Like Alara's forum suggestion.
FOR EXAMPLE:
Let's say all the HDMs decide not to be players as well.
Well, now the HDMs can all get together in this forum and talk to eachother about about cross-server plots or global plots, etc. And send exchange students... er DMs over to eachother to facilitate, etc.
HDMs get positive control over what happens on the servers under their care, the community gets awesome cross server campaigns and adventures.
Of course, if memory serves, we had something like this once upon a time, did we not? A forum to encourage cross server plots?
I remember it turned out to be a lot of guys with ideas asking for help and not getting any communication from other teams.
Hopefully that would change with a new environment.
Zelk:
If the GDM thing was instituted, who's to say that from the outset responsibility of quality control is now not shared between the HDM and the GDM team? Again, this whole idea rests on the (likely unattainable) merits of solid and reasonable guys and gals who wouldn't even think about attacking Arabel with Drow.
But whatever, obviously it's dumB and stupid to think ALFA can be trusted to have any quality DMs who know what they are doing and are respectful of realistically running events within the scope of Faerun on a wider level than one or two servers at a time.[/sarcasm]
Anywayz, whatever the reason, it's a fact that without some major adjustments in attitude, this is not something that is feasible, so we move onto ideas that may work towards this goal in other, more palatable ways. Like Alara's forum suggestion.
Zelknolf, that was one of my biggest concerns when I first went to introduce GDMs. The way I suggested getting around it, when I first proposed having GDMs under Duck (was the 2nd time it got approved) was by forming a 'global' server. There would be an HDM and EADM and everything like that, so it would run just like an actaul server. The only difference being that the GDMs would not have a server, but be allowed to DM under all server, provided they met a range of conditions (and therefore would have to be completely transparent in their workings). Unfortunately that plan was turned down.
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