White Warlock wrote:I do agree, however, that it would be disruptive to immersion if most everyone was a dual-class warlock, just as it would be if everyone was a dual-class druid.
Well, druids are a lot more common than warlocks in FR, no matter how you look at it. As for being RP-centered... RP and PG aren't two mutually exclusive states for a PC to be in, and the lines between them are pretty ambiguous. If we just said "to hell with balance, we trust people not to PG" we'd have some horrible problems, IMO.
I actually ment a warlock was a title given to someone with magical powers. Not necissarily a mage, but the sort of people who give titles to villains/heros don't know a mage from a sorcerer from a spellfire user anyways.
As for deciding if the class is in or not, I'm very much in favor of making as few "admin decisions" as necissary before ALFA goes live. We've seen the resistance to changing past, premature decisions, so I think the best thing to do is wait and only decide when needed. If someone needs an admin ruling on something they can ask for it, but I'd really prefer not to rule on anything ahead of time.
Well, actually... no they're not. Of all the various titles for mages, warlock is not one of them. But, this isn't really the type of argument i want to waste our time with.
In FR, warlock is a title that many wizards have. Just your first example, the Warlock's Crypt. That is home of the lich wizard Larloch, who is called a warlock but has wizard/archmage/netherese arcanist levels. No actual warlock class involved.
So what's to stop us from just implimenting them as only being the bloodline-based ones, instead of the "soul-sold to a powerful demon" ones, seeing as the sources don't seem to take a stand? Put it into place with a sort of "sorcerer is to dragon as warlock is to demon" - explain the alignment requirement with the caveat that taking the warlock class means the character has chosen to actively cultivate the nastier parts of their heritage. IMHO, that sort of thing would fit in very nicely, in that incubi and succubi exist (and are generally presented as both fertile and capable of producing fertile offspring). And, if nothing else, such an explanation would let us dodge the yuck that is an Aasimar warlock.
Grand Fromage wrote:That is home of the lich wizard Larloch, who is called a warlock but has wizard/archmage/netherese arcanist levels. No actual warlock class involved.
Looks to me like they were trying to do their best to 'emulate' a warlock, seeing as such a class didn't exist when they fleshed out that lich.
Grand Fromage wrote:That is home of the lich wizard Larloch, who is called a warlock but has wizard/archmage/netherese arcanist levels. No actual warlock class involved.
Looks to me like they were trying to do their best to 'emulate' a warlock, seeing as such a class didn't exist when they fleshed out that lich.
No, they weren't at all. Larloch is not a Complete Arcane warlock in any sense, and doesn't resemble one at all, in game mechanics or in lore. The same is true with all the netherese and netherese survivors, as well as all the other ancient powerful sorts I can think of in the Realms.
Okay, so we can agree to disagree... moving along.
I think the soul trade is an interesting concept to deal with for Warlocks, and DMs will be permitted of course to endlessly harrass them because of it. But from what I can gather is that there is really no canonical reference to a Warlock in any of the FR literature... is that correct?
Booch wrote:But from what I can gather is that there is really no canonical reference to a Warlock in any of the FR literature... is that correct?
Eytan Bernstein wrote:The only reference to warlocks in existing books is a single one I made in Dragons of Faerun. It's a quote by Pherix Traeleth, Master Warlock of the Sildeyuir. I left it suitably vague so people can introduce the class (or not introduce it) at their leisure. With increasing requests for this sort of thing, there may be some more references and information forthcoming on other classes, though what or where I cannot say.
Sildeyuir isn't in Toril, and is certainly the kind of place you could make weird bargains with fey powers, but there you go. Its got portals to Toril, of course.
The lack of FR sources siting warlocks led me to vote a no to the poll. As GF and Ronan pointed out, the Warlock's Crypt is a misnomer, and a name popularized by bards. The lich Larloch is referred to as 'the warlock' 'the warlock king' and as a 'sorcerer king of Netheril' go figure. It's pretty obvious in more than one source that Larloch was a powerful wizard who is now a powerful lich with many liches under him at the Warlock's Crypt location. Anyways, if we do allow warlocks as a playable class, they had better be unable to multiclass. I really don't see the need for them other than to appeal to the type of players that I am actively trying to keep out of ALFA. Also, their rarity, should they actually fit into FR should preclude them from being playable for reasons others have already mentioned... So no, no, and no. Not a fit for FR, not playable, no multiclassing if allowed. My .02
- HEEGZ
Last edited by HEEGZ on Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alright, let me explain my statement of disagreeing on principle.
Warlock means, "oath breaker." However you decide to run up his skills is up to you, and that's what the FR people did when they made Larloch, and what was later done in the CA. Everyone interprets it differently, and that is where it all goes to the crapper.
But let's throw this on the table. Warlock's Crypt... that one thing needs to be examined, because where the frick did the get that name from? Did they visit some other plane and decide they liked that, so... hey, let's go name the crypt that way?!? Hell no. The concept of a warlock, as presented in CA did not exist, but people were presenting warlocks in Forgotten Realms nonetheless. Albeit, a far cry from what CA ended up with, and to tell you the truth, CA's version is a far cry than what i would have conceived for that class... but hey, it's now canon... so what do we do, shit different sized critters?
Let me put it this way. If warlocks did not exist in Faerun... then there would be NO logical reason for calling a crypt by the name of, "Warlock's Crypt." In order for it to enter into their vocabulary, to such a degree that they would name a sorcerer-lich to be a warlock, then the concept of a 'warlock' exists in the Forgotten Realms. The word, "warlock" is in Common Tongue, and so accepted within society so as to park the name on their friggin' maps!
As far as this argument goes about Larloch, we can argue all day long he is or is not a warlock. By the definition of what the CA later defined a warlock to be, he is clearly not. But, by the fact such a class was not previously written up, and thus people had to mix-n-match to create the concept... he may very well have been one, just as he may have been a 'sorcerer.' The thing is, when Larloch was initially written up, there were no sorcerer classes either! Guess what, only two options for creating the character concept, and illusionist didn't quite fit the bill.
Many many years ago this name i use, White Warlock, was titled to a character. The warlock 'class' I played was homegrown by my DM, because at the time... no such class was canon. My character was pretty much a wizard, with a few druidic abilities tossed in. the DM had a different take than the writers of CA, just as the people who wrote up Larloch. You can claim it's some random title, but... what is a warlock other than a gross misinterpretation anyway?
I believe they should be allowed, however people can not multiclass into it, and those who start the class must have equal or more levels of warlock to whatever class they multiclass into.
Vendrin wrote:I believe they should be allowed, however people can not multiclass into it, and those who start the class must have equal or more levels of warlock to whatever class they multiclass into.
While i don't disagree with you on this, i must bring to light the reason why so many in ALFA feel it should not be a multiclass. It's because they do not have faith in the playerbase, nor in the administration to protect the sanctity of the community's ideals.
That's the real kicker here. Many, possibly most, members of ALFA don't have faith in ALFA, the institution. You guys 'expect' people to multiclass a level of warlock just to PG that +4 dex. Worse, you think they'll get away with it. It's pretty sad really, when you can't trust your own community to enforce the guidelines of ethical roleplay.
