Frenzied Berserker at Level 5 Cap

[puny]

uhmn... i dont get why it would even be banned?
is this to good to be true and thus not welcome in alfa? or is it to bad to be a welcome addition, surely the berzerker will blast his way into death or glory with or without a party to (buff/debuff)inspire frenzy to?
maybe ive misunderstod something, basically im just curious

(spoiler with frenzy+inspire frenzy copy paste from nwn2wiki for anyone to lazy to google it up:)

Spoiler:

Frenzy
A 1st-level Frenzied Berserker gains the ability to frenzy. Frenzy adds a +6 bonus to Strength (no Constitution bonus), imposes a -4 penalty to AC, and gives the Frenzied Berserker a single extra attack at their highest Base Attack Bonus (this does not stack with haste or other effects that add an additional attack). Each round of the frenzy, the frenzied berserker takes 6 points of damage (12 in the unpatched game). The effects last 3 + Constitution modifier rounds (Extend Rage feat extends the duration by 5 rounds), after which the frenzied berserker is fatigued for 5 rounds, suffering -2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, and -10% movement penalties. Initially, this ability can be used once per day and at 3rd level and every odd level after that, the frenzied berserker gains an additional use per day. Bonuses and penalties (including fatigue effects) from Frenzy and Barbarian Rage stack with each other. Frenzy bonuses do not stack with any +strength items or magic you have equipped/cast.

Inspire Frenzy
Berserker can inspire a Frenzy in all his/her allies. This ability only affects the Berserker's allies. Inspire Frenzy grants a bonus identical to the Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy except that it lasts for 2 rounds (insead of 3 + Constitution Modifier rounds), applies Fatigue penalties for 2 rounds afterwards (instead of 5 rounds), and that the bonuses from Inspire Frenzy and Barbarian Rage do not stack (penalties still accrue). The Frenzied Berserker can use this ability once per day at 6th level, twice per day at 8th level, and three times per day at 10th level

[Adanu]

The problem puny was that inspire frenzy gave the whole party frenzy... and frenzy was a forced 6 damage a round. This leads to potential TPKs.

[puny]

The problem puny was that inspire frenzy gave the whole party frenzy... and frenzy was a forced 6 damage a round. This leads to potential TPKs.

for... 2 rounds. thats 12 dmg. just as dangerous to have triggerhappy, missaiming fireball wielding wizards in a party imo? use it smart or dont use it, but... taking it away feels wierd.

[Brokenbone]

Frenzy in pnp also involves attacking your own party if you're still in Frenzy state but you're out of enemies (gated by a will save, and will is a low save for likely FB builds). Some say that's why the minimal damage cost per round in PNP was jacked up in the video game, since the disadvantage of "attack friendlies" wasn't implemented.

Over to AC a minute again, fighter dip isn't a snarky dig, fighter dip is a common enough way to, with a single level, get for any class a bonus feat, tower shield and heavy armor. Fighter 2 isn't uncommon to grab as well for a second bonus feat. FB needs like, 3 feats from that bonus list right? Cleave, great cleave and power attack. In Alfa's lower levels of play, wouldn't you think grabbing fighter levels and the bonus feats faster than just waiting every three levels would be the norm? Decent armor being opened up is just gravy if rapidly getting feats was main goal.

[Adanu]

The problem puny was that inspire frenzy gave the whole party frenzy... and frenzy was a forced 6 damage a round. This leads to potential TPKs.

for... 2 rounds. thats 12 dmg. just as dangerous to have triggerhappy, missaiming fireball wielding wizards in a party imo? use it smart or dont use it, but... taking it away feels wierd.

Two rounds plus con bonus.

[puny]

The problem puny was that inspire frenzy gave the whole party frenzy... and frenzy was a forced 6 damage a round. This leads to potential TPKs.

for... 2 rounds. thats 12 dmg. just as dangerous to have triggerhappy, missaiming fireball wielding wizards in a party imo? use it smart or dont use it, but... taking it away feels wierd.

Two rounds plus con bonus.

for the berzerker, not the party
for a berzerker with +5 con mod thats 7 rounds (42 dmg)
minimum level of achieving the PrC is lvl 6 with a full bab class which is minimum of 90 hp (for a warrior (with +5 con) and 102 for a barb, so, cant kill self with it ;p

[Adanu]

The problem puny was that inspire frenzy gave the whole party frenzy... and frenzy was a forced 6 damage a round. This leads to potential TPKs.

for... 2 rounds. thats 12 dmg. just as dangerous to have triggerhappy, missaiming fireball wielding wizards in a party imo? use it smart or dont use it, but... taking it away feels wierd.

Two rounds plus con bonus.

for the berzerker, not the party
for a berzerker with +5 con mod thats 7 rounds (42 dmg)
minimum level of achieving the PrC is lvl 6 with a full bab class which is minimum of 90 hp (for a warrior (with +5 con) and 102 for a barb, so, cant kill self with it ;p

In the middle of a giant fight with half the party in negatives and so forth? potential TPK right there, even by accident.

[Swift]

In the middle of a giant fight with half the party in negatives and so forth? potential TPK right there, even by accident.

Why would you use it in that situation in the first place? If you use it at the start and things rapidly go to shit, well, that is just bad luck, but if your party is already struggling, you wouldn't dream of breaking it out.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

In the middle of a giant fight with half the party in negatives and so forth? potential TPK right there, even by accident.

Why would you use it in that situation in the first place?

Could have used it before hand, and the fight turns sour and this happens.

[Swift]

In the middle of a giant fight with half the party in negatives and so forth? potential TPK right there, even by accident.

Why would you use it in that situation in the first place?

Could have used it before hand, and the fight turns sour and this happens.

So? That is the risk we take when we go into combat against Very Bad Things. It is just as easy for a Fireball to take out a party member who suddenly moves into it's path for whatever reason.

If you take it out based on that reasoning means we might as well take most every AoE spell out of the game too.

If its implementation is just stupid, thats cool, but taking it out because "If it gets used and then the fight goes bad, it could kill people" just seems dumb.

[puny]

[...]use it smart or dont use it[...]

i feel that it would be somewhat boring and to take away something just because people could, potentially, use it in "wrong" situation imo, people misscklick and misstargets all kinds of dumb things not all the time, but often enough anyway

(would, the -6 floor should prevent toons that are busy bleeding out from getting that dmg? wouldnt be a flurry issue with the dmg in its own because it is/should be roundbased/initiative based?)

is the fact that it's forced dmg the same problem as cursesong? that its completely unsave:able mayhaps?

[Adanu]

[...]use it smart or dont use it[...]

i feel that it would be somewhat boring and to take away something just because people could, potentially, use it in "wrong" situation imo, people misscklick and misstargets all kinds of dumb things not all the time, but often enough anyway

(would, the -6 floor should prevent toons that are busy bleeding out from getting that dmg? wouldnt be a flurry issue with the dmg in its own because it is/should be roundbased/initiative based?)

is the fact that it's forced dmg the same problem as cursesong? that its completely unsave:able mayhaps?

It's completely forced. There is no save for it.

And swift, it's an example, not an iron clad point.

[SwordSaintMusashi]

In the middle of a giant fight with half the party in negatives and so forth? potential TPK right there, even by accident.

Why would you use it in that situation in the first place?

Could have used it before hand, and the fight turns sour and this happens.

So? That is the risk we take when we go into combat against Very Bad Things. It is just as easy for a Fireball to take out a party member who suddenly moves into it's path for whatever reason.

If you take it out based on that reasoning means we might as well take most every AoE spell out of the game too.

If its implementation is just stupid, thats cool, but taking it out because "If it gets used and then the fight goes bad, it could kill people" just seems dumb.

Wasn't the intent of my statement: You just asked why you would use it "in that situation" in the first place. I think its a poorly created ability for a PW setting and we should just remove it and move on.

[Swift]

And swift, it's an example, not an iron clad point.

I never claimed that it was, I merely questioned the validity of it.

[Dorn]

Why would you use it in that situation in the first place? .

Because you have slipped away to be replaced by something else
Because the pain has lit a dark furnace
Because the blood has blinded you from reason
Because the fury you use now uses you
Because...now...slaughter is oxygen
Chose to use the frenzy? Better chose to hold back the tide.

((ok that's how i like to play it but just for fun, i know there's no rules))

Anyway. I say allow the class, remove the inspire frenzy and then debate if we should put that single feat back in.

PS - i'd prefer it was in. The party role play when the big warrior type who carries them through so much turns out to be a liability...that they cant survive without....woudl be great