A CvC pre-nuptual agreement question(s)?

[thinkpig]

I think a good synopsis of this thread's intentions could be stated as such:

Expect real consequences for your IC actions, follow the ALFA CvC rules, and don't be a jerk.

Whining about one kind of CvC while rationalizing another is ridiculous. If it's IC, it's IC, and the interpretation of that is up to the respective players and overseeing DM's. The rules are in place; if you don't like them propose a change. Otherwise quit whining about how you think anyone who CvC's is a jerk, and quit trying to tell new players your slanted version of the rules. The rules are already there, for anyone who wants to see them.

I'm not saying everyone who wants CvC should do it OOC and jump into an arena, as I-KP would like to imply. I'm saying, if you don't have the stomach for it, you can always avoid IC circumstances that facilitate CvC, back off when you get the mandatory CvC warning, or go play somewhere where CvC is totally banned.

[thinkpig]

...And to the argument people keep digging up that "Anyone making a C/E PC is using it as an excuse to be mean and start CvC" I'd like to point out that anyone making a L/G character is just as liable to use it as an excuse to have the automatic moral authority necessary to do exactly the same.

ALFA allows evil PCs. Deal with it.

[CloudDancing]

Also, should players know and already accept that for instance insulting another PC's god to his/her face certainly is a justifiable cause for physical retirbution that can and will result in the death of the insulter?

I think your PC can take a "no Kill" approach as an IC imperative and character trait.

It should NOT be your personal idea as a roleplayer in every PC you make unless EVERY Pc you make is a total pacifist with every "character" they encounter. That means player generated or game generated.

So NPC Bandit should count as much as PC Bandit and so forth.

But as you mentioned in your Episode #2 some PC's are just bullies. It might an IC character trait OR the player's character to ASK for trouble always OR to see who exactly they can intimidate and/or force to metagame into NOT taking CvC options.

I think if confronted by a bully, one should exterminate it OR if possible have a DM with them to use persude and intimidate rolls.

Additionally it might help to have your bio and your descriptive emotes reflect your skills and stats.

As in "This silent long haired male, while moving slowly, is rippling with cat-like grace, and you noticed a LARGE symbol of Chauntea on his corded neck, as well as a not-so-subtle Hammer the size of an Ogre's fist hanging from his belt. It must weigh 40 pounds at least of solid hand crafted Dwarven Steel but he seems to carry it like a dinner spoon. His face is scarred with the marks of many battles and even a characteristic dragon-fire burn licks across once cheek*

I consider this AMPLE warning for CvC

[DarkHin]

This thread reminds me how geeky we all are. It's most excellent.

[Rotku]

One of my favourite CvCs in NWN1 was when my PC caught another pick pocketing her. She managed to track that PC down, days later, and beat her down to the ground. My PC then, who may have normally killed, was intercepted by my OOC considerations for the player. So I decided that a thief should have it's hand chopped off. This ended up leading to a large amount of real fun RP for all involved, as the now-handless thief quested to get in a temples good-books enough that they could get a regenerate spell.

From the point of view of someone who has had to deal with the OOC bullshit that gets thrown around after a CvC (as Player Admin mainly), the biggest problem is this:

People fail to take into account the world around them.

It annoys me to no end when I hear of a CvC in the middle of Silverymoon, or in a well patrolled section of BG. This is when you are most likely to get hurt feelings, justifiably too. I know I've had something similar happen to me, when another PC hit me in the middle of an upper-end pub and then strolled off like nothing was going to happen. It's these situations, when carried to the lethal stage, that get a bloody pain to mediate out of game. And it is situations like these that have lead to the CvC rule been what it is.

[I-KP]

This is called premeditated CvC and thus requires a DM online.

[dirsa]

i like the premise of cvc... without it the world would become dull... as for actual cvc, i personally find it not so pleasant. and funny enough - not on the receiving end. that one actually can be a lot of fun, certainly more so than running into pack of goblins and throwing some bad rolls.. i find the decision of offing another character in game to be rather bothersome. even if it makes all the ic sense in the world. keeping the suspense and premise of impending killing is so much more fun than the actual act...

funny part about it all is that it's usually not the ce halforcs that are the cvc killers... it's the goody two shoes types of characters... and they do it with ruthless calculating efficiency reserved for only the worst of the worst. end of velsharoonite cult in tsm comes to mind as example... here you have chaps rping the bottom of the barrel evil, doing so without killing toons in droves. and end result? good aligned characters murder them in cold blood..

what's my point? i don't have one. i'm just drunk... well, may be i do. cvc is, and should be a part of the world, probably to much bigger degree as it is now. it is what makes the world tick...

[thinkpig]

i like the premise of cvc... without it the world would become dull... as for actual cvc, i personally find it not so pleasant. and funny enough - not on the receiving end. that one actually can be a lot of fun, certainly more so than running into pack of goblins and throwing some bad rolls.. i find the decision of offing another character in game to be rather bothersome. even if it makes all the ic sense in the world. keeping the suspense and premise of impending killing is so much more fun than the actual act...

funny part about it all is that it's usually not the ce halforcs that are the cvc killers... it's the goody two shoes types of characters... and they do it with ruthless calculating efficiency reserved for only the worst of the worst. end of velsharoonite cult in tsm comes to mind as example... here you have chaps rping the bottom of the barrel evil, doing so without killing toons in droves. and end result? good aligned characters murder them in cold blood..

what's my point? i don't have one. i'm just drunk... well, may be i do. cvc is, and should be a part of the world, probably to much bigger degree as it is now. it is what makes the world tick...

+1

[CloudDancing]

My advice comes from Bob Marley's "I shot the sheriff"

Kill it before it grows.

[Galadorn]

In your original post you contradicted yourself by saying "there is always a way" and then stating immediately after "except when there are exceptions," you are basically saying any IC CvC is an "excuse" to be mean since it could "always" be avoided. Your loaded rhetoric is a farce and is acts as a passive-aggressive attack on anyone who CvCs, even as you are attempting to rationalize your own CvC with this thread. Seems like a textbook case of hypocrisy to me. If this thread is targeted at new players, it seemed to me that you and some other responders were attempting to reinterpret the rules for them. I quote the actual rules so that others can know the difference between your framed interpretation, and the actual rules as listed in the ALFA rulebook.

Let me be clear that when I said you were wrong, I was referring to the boldfaced portion of this quote from your original post:

For the record, I honestly believe there is always an RP solution to AVOID CvC which results in the death of a PC, almost irrespective of the insult or act. Beyond such things as murdering in cold blood the children of the PC or something so blatantly obvious of course. But beyond the most obvious and cruel acts against a PC I really believe PKs are not necessary. That's just me, and I know MANY disagree with that. I also never assume i'm right of course.

You fail to account for infinite possible scenarios where CvC could be IC.

thinkpig, you're basing all my "hipocrisy" and my "farce of a viewpoint" on the word: 'always'.

I apologize and retract the word 'always'. (for now, so your pills can have a chance to kick in... there, feel better now?) Sorry for my sarcasm, i'm trying my very best to discuss the game without anyone else jumping the anti-Galadorn bandwagon once again.

Wow.

Can you calm down a little? This CvC thing seems to really touch a nerve with you. I am sorry this thread hit home so hard and that it's initial good intentions have swerved to in fact flame me. I didn't start it to insult anyone... not sure why it got this way, but as much as I love ALFA the good intentions of mine have "USUALLY" (not always) been taken the wrong way.

I most certainly did not attempt to RE-INTERPRET the rules to SWAY new players actions or motivations.

I think a good synopsis of this thread's intentions could be stated as such:
Expect real consequences for your IC actions, follow the ALFA CvC rules, and don't be a jerk.

Yes this is an excellent example of what I think ALFA is, and should be known as by new and old. Thank you.

Whining about one kind of CvC while rationalizing another is ridiculous. If it's IC, it's IC, and the interpretation of that is up to the respective players and overseeing DM's. The rules are in place; if you don't like them propose a change. Otherwise quit whining about how you think anyone who CvC's is a jerk, and quit trying to tell new players your slanted version of the rules. The rules are already there, for anyone who wants to see them.

I'm not saying everyone who wants CvC should do it OOC and jump into an arena, as I-KP would like to imply. I'm saying, if you don't have the stomach for it, you can always avoid IC circumstances that facilitate CvC, back off when you get the mandatory CvC warning, or go play somewhere where CvC is totally banned.

thinkpig, i'm not whining. I wanted to post a thread about CvC, to get new players more informed about what goes on. I didn't want to mention it without throwing in my own opinion on the matter.

Many systems include disclaimers after hard core rules are laid down.

What I said really was not me trying impose a certain thought pattern or playstyle into others, but i'm also not worried about sharing my own point of view with the obvious incorrect assumption that others here wouldn't start flaming me - my mistake i guess.

I used the word always and then stated blatant/extreme examples where I said CvC-death would occur even for my own PCs... I didn't think you or anyone would get down so intensely at trying to flame or discredit what I say after that that you don't agree with by centring on that contradiction.

I thank you for pointing it out though, and apologize for that. I for one (and damn near the only one it appears more and more so often around here) admit I made a mistake. Always is a very strong word. Can you ever forgive me?

I guess I could also keep my always word, and say even in extreme cases like murdering the child of my PC in cold blood--- I could ALSO RP a way out of that, without breaking MY character...and without leading to CvC-death.

Cool, it's 4:20. I wish I had a spliff right now. would be perfect at this moment.

DISCLAIMER: I will read over my answers above, and do my best to edit/re-write them, change them to be more clear, and attempt with my best efforts to word everything I say perfectly so as to avoid as best I can the ammunition others will eventually use against me to discredit my opinions or interpretations of the rules or anyone else's opnions. So possible edits incoming.

I apologize if anyone thinks any of the above is a flame or insult directed at anyone. Most of it has become a defensive response now...which again is unfortunate.

[Zelknolf]

To respond to Thinkpig, who ironically jabs at good characters for being more likely to initiate CvC (while insisting that good RP is paramount)--

It would tend to be bad RP to attack the NPC evil cults for their acts of evil with ruthless calculated efficiency and then not do so for the PC evil cults for their acts of evil. And goodie PCs regularly research, track, hunt, and kill or capture (usually kill-- I tend to get looked at like a freak when one of my characters attempts capture) evil NPCs for doing evil things. I hear a lot of "I can't believe that good guys use violence to respond to crimes against all sentient life! They should give us flowers and chat with us over tea so we can ignore them and keep doing it!" -- but, y'know, being evil is risky. Because we define evil as doing things that prompt disgust and strong responses from the average person.

So expect disgust when people find out.

[thinkpig]

This is called premeditated CvC and thus requires a DM online.

Does this REALLY look like a premeditated CvC situation, you passive-aggressive rule-framing sycophant? You clearly implicate me and insinuate that I premeditated CvC with you and tried to avoid getting a DM, deceitful and slanderous of you, and refuted by the preceeding screenshot.

and as for galadorn, I'd like to provide you all with a link to a thread where galadorn publically harasses me about a totally IC CvC, approved and overseen by Castano, about which the player was warned by HDM and our faction alike that we would kill his red wizard on sight; and then he made a public forum post in the MS forums stating "Rumor has it a Red Wizard is in the Moonshae Isles" (here is a link, for your convenience:http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 6&start=15 Moonshae tavern tales & rumors, page 2, post by black sheep) and was foolish enough to follow gibreel into the wilderness, to his inevitable demise. totally IC, legit, and with clear warnings. In reference to this situation, which Galdorn knew nothing about, he performed this annoying act of harassment in a NEW PLAYER'S "WELCOME TO ALFA" thread, really classy; after that ugly little deed he's going to six months later make a post about CvC etiquette? Here is a link to the new player welcome thread in which he makes two abusive, passive-aggressive posts about me:

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 31&t=44964

Tell you what, both of you, Galadorn and I-KP, if I ever see you making a public forum post about "CvC Etiquette" again, I am going to talk to an ALFA rep about formal grievance for you both over your ridiculous and unethical conduct, which I had hoped until now we could just put behind us.

Gala, you tell me in IRC that you made this post so that "new players know how it works," why don't you leave that to the Retentions team and Admin staff?


And will someone please lock this thread now for me? Yeah, thanks.

[Galadorn]

Wow.

[paazin]

Let's try to be a little more constructive, folks. If you have questions on policy raise it with the respective HDMs, the DMA or PA. If you have a complaint or conflict that needs resolution contact one of our many Alfa Reps.


Meanwhile, let's all calm down and take a breather.

[Heero]

Meanwhile, let's all calm down and take a breather.

Dont be a narc, bro.