Permadeath Discussion - Answers Needed

[Swift]

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

1. Probably not, as the removal of proper death would likely destroy the feel of the PW. It would become just another MMO style game.
2. Yes and No. MMOs and ALFA provide two vastly contrasting styles in the world and gameplay they present. Sometimes I prefer ALFA, sometimes I prefer an MMO.
3. No, not without a drastic rethink of the way MMOs are designed.
4. Achiever I would think is closest, as I do not play my character simply to shoot the shit with other characters (even if that is all that takes place some of the time).
5. TBD

[Galadorn]

Without reading previous responses:

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

No I would not. It is most enjoyable to know that the roleplayers here know that their actions really count. If there were respawn or garanteed ressurrection after death no matter how much people preach they would act accordingly (as if death was final), there's no one who could convince me of that truth.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

I equally enjoy ALFA as other MMOs, including games which are completely different with respect to death and dying. Each game has a place and is enjoyable in their own ways for their own reasons. Although if I truly had to make ONE choice, I would always choose Permadeath "games/PWs/Servers" over respawn games/servers everytime.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Yes.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Achiever.


.............with with an Explorative Socialising tendency?

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

With respect to Roleplaying it's ALL important and completely changes everything - as much as real death can change lives . (Well not AS much as real death, but you understand what I mean).


Respawn servers/games as I said hold a great place for enjoyment for me when it's that time again... for instance i move around alot, yearly, or every two-3 years max... i mean move around the world and settle in another country... during those transition times it has been my experience that with enough downtime, I lose interest in the game I was currently playing before I left... last stint I played WoW for 6-12 months non-stop everyday. When I moved this year, I couldn't play it due to numerous reasons, so I lost that drive to login again when I cleared up those issues blocking my gaming.... when I got back to a situation where gaming, for me, could start again... any number of games could have sparked my interest and i'd go head first and full time into it... I am thankful to no end that it was ALFA that I came back to as I have missed it dearly for a while now.
Cheers to DMs and players across all servers for a rgeat game. And thank you for the warm re-welcome upon returning last month.

[CloudDancing]

I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

1 Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

Yes. BUT there are 30 other servers in Gamespy (if not more) I can play on when I want a less dangerous environment. Alfa is where I go for serious roleplay with intelligent people. Elsewhere is where I go to experiment and just fool around.

2 Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?


Yes because I have played them ALL. MMO's are grind factories. They don't have GMS that do random events. The Gms don't care about your character. And they are all basically Skinner Boxes that make sure a. you are hooked on the MMo and b. that subscription fee/paid content keeps coming to them.

3 Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?


No, because there would still be idiots in there who can't roleplay and no active DMs


4 Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA:

Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
Socializer 75percent, 15 percent Explorer, 5 percent Killer

5. Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

Permadeath is an excercise in emotional maturity and loss. I think people who have played live "pen and paper" D&D are well aware of the consequences. And learning to live another life and RESIST the temptations to metagame, cheat, lie, and encourage others to lie, cheat, and steal is part of delveloping emotional maturity and integrity.

As well as is the ability to resist the urge to pressure people into using previous character histories and OC influence community-wise to block the organization or players from evolving, is just another level to this

This is because foundationaly Permadeath brings a great deal of good strong actors who like attention and want to perform for others and with that comes the primadonnas, and the impression that Alfa is the cream of the crop.

But that belief, as you travel from one persistent world to the next, is entirely faulty. Good roleplayers are everywhere, but Alfa is one of the few places where people who think purposefully and creatively can be respected for their knowledge.

And Players here are unique for accepting the virtual poverty of hard core D&D and NO fast loot or godly powers, but at the same time they develop an extreme sense of opportunism from being starved of both their basic needs in game and their basic need to have the universe pay damn attention to their unique and special character. It's literally a masochistic state; sitting about waiting for someone to prod your character to life and perhaps purposefully change their world forever and create a hero.

Can you imagine, the character, waiting alone on the server, tempting death for very little gains or worse, with such a strong investment in that characters fragile lives?

Some are even unwilling to adventure because of their "IC" terror of death as well those so unwilling to accept the instructions of a untrustworthy DM, they won't log on or play with certain Dms?

What grounds them HERE persay with this constant looming knowledge that to progress in life and become stronger they must trust and expose themselves to the very whims of the Gods?

A feeling of home? The creation of content, which is SO essentially valuable. The creative commons? The collaborative process which allows the area you spent hours painting and painstakingly making the most beautiful thing ever, be taken by a scripter and animated, then give to a HDM to present to everyone to enjoy and take pleasure in?

Yes, all those things as well as the fun of meeting people literally from every part of the entire world who at a base level enjoy the things that you enjoy and sharing with them.
((I wrote this a bit too early and sorry to those that read it BEFORE the conclusion and edits))

[Jfis]

Just a quick note to let you guys know that I have read everything posted so far and I find everything written to be highly relevant input for an analysis of permadeath in relation to your community. Also, as suggested, I would be more than happy to supply ALFA with a copy of my final paper when it is done, its the very least I can do.

I got two (completely unrelated) questions though that I have hopes you can help me with:

1) Excactly when (in terms of year and month) was ALFA created, and who were the original people who got the idea? Perhaps if one of you can give me a very short rundown of your history I would be very happy.

2) I've searched day and night for information about the original Neverwinter Nights (the AOL game from 1991) and specifically how death was handled (was it anything resembling permadeath?). I figured someone from this community might know!

[Faeryl]

1) Excactly when (in terms of year and month) was ALFA created, and who were the original people who got the idea? Perhaps if one of you can give me a very short rundown of your history I would be very happy.

This link has a bit of our history. It's from Aug 2002.
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=In ... etail&id=6

[Castano]

I'm looking for answers to the following:

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

A: Yes. For me this game is about playing in the setting of FR. It would change the character fo the game for sure, but I would still play here.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

A: Yes, because of teh DM attention. It recreates a PnP game pretty well.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

A: No.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

A: Achiever and Explorer

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

A: It's not really important to me. A fantasy setting is a fantasy settign with or without "permadeath" I would not refer to ALFA as having permadeath, we allow rezes as per the DnD rules, with a house rule that they are fairly rare. I think I agree msot with Jayde's comments. Our version of permadeath detracts from the story IMO. I also feel we should get rid of CvC...due to the game engine and the forums it is impossible for ALFA's CvCers to not have meta knowledge. They know who has a low level weak PC and who doesn't and as a DM and player here for years, I have noticed people treating different level characters differently, even when their character shouldn't know the PC's level.

[CloudDancing]

I would also note most players here retire vs dying. Retiring means basically "happily ever after" I like to think. As per retirement? Seeing most of your good friends and meaningful relationship end due to to player death does rather make you want to settle down, raise some kids, and get over your terrible case of adveturer PTSD.

[Zelknolf]

2) I've searched day and night for information about the original Neverwinter Nights (the AOL game from 1991) and specifically how death was handled (was it anything resembling permadeath?). I figured someone from this community might know!

Unfortunately, AOL/ SSI's Neverwinter Nights was not a role playing environment. It remains noteworthy because, quite contrary to what Ultima Online would have people believe, it was the first graphical MMORPG. The game operated out of the Gold Box engine, and thus had a very strong emphasis on turn-based combat. It was not designed for player-created content the way that Neverwinter Nights (Bioware, 2002) and Neverwinter Nights 2 are, and became defunct in 1997. The Gold Box engine toolset (which you could look at in Unlimited Adventures [SSI, 1993] to see) was not, as far as I know, adapted for use with AOL/SSI's Neverwinter Nights. This, combined with the gross unpopularity of permadeath in MMOlike environments, prevented the creation of anything like ALFA.

[Ithildur]

'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

Most likely, no.

There are plenty of other servers with decent but less hardcore RP and interesting content out there that fit the 'guaranteed resurrection' mold. Some of them have arguably better built servers and better custom content than ALFA along with more DMs (though not usually on par with ALFA's DMs). Permadeath, and all that goes along with it such as greater consistency, immersion, and the sense of every decision, achievement, success, etc being that much more meaningful, was a vital part of what drew me to the ALFA experience in the past.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Yes. Tried DDO, lost interest after a month even though it was free

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Possibly if they had actual RP, permadeath, and ruleset closer to 3.5e in a FR setting. So probably no.

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Explorer

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

ALFA's permadeath system is not perfect by any stretch for various reasons others have stated; however that does not change the fact that cheap guaranteed respawns/rezes cheapen the storytelling and takes away a vital element of a DnD based game experiences.

[/quote]

[NickD]

1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?
2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?
3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?
4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*
5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

1) While I'm not playing in ALFA at the moment, my answer is Yes. ALFA's major drawcard for me was the roleplaying and the DMs. Dropping permadeath would be to ALFA's loss, but not enough for it to be a killer.

Also, "in some form" makes it a fairly broad question. That could mean resurrection can be in the form of immediate respawn to requiring a fugue plane quest to one week later and a level lower to first level again with 0 xp and no equipment or gold.

2) No. Although I only play free-to-play MMOs (Lord of the Rings Online at the moment)

ALFA can have a high degree of immersion that MMOs lack, but without constant DM attention, you are eventually going to run out of things to do and things to talk about with other characters. MMOs have the resources that allow them to be expanded upon that a volunteer project like ALFA simply cannot compete with.

In the end if you keep playing something that doesn't change, you run the serious risk of ending up "grinding" the same quests and spawns just to have something to do... It was that realisation that made me decide to stop playing for a while.

3) No.

4) Explorer. Closely followed by Achiever and Socialiser.

5) I think permadeath is important for immersion, but it's not the be-all and end-all of roleplaying.

[rorax]

ALFA can have a high degree of immersion that MMOs lack, but without constant DM attention, you are eventually going to run out of things to do and things to talk about with other characters. MMOs have the resources that allow them to be expanded upon that a volunteer project like ALFA simply cannot compete with.

In the end if you keep playing something that doesn't change, you run the serious risk of ending up "grinding" the same quests and spawns just to have something to do... It was that realisation that made me decide to stop playing for a while.

Same thoughts.

[Inwintersshadow]

Jfis wrote:I'm looking for answers to the following:
1) Would you still play in ALFA if there was no character loss, and your character was, in some form, guaranteed a resurrection after each and every death?

Answer: having played NWN2 offline I can say never being able to truly die in the game gets boring very quick.

2) Do you prefer playing in ALFA over playing the popular MMOs?

Answer: having played in the grinding games many times I would say "yes'. If want to just kill stuff I'd find an old copy of Space invaders online. It may not be as pretty but its the same thing in my view.

3) Would you be more drawn to the popular MMOs if they included permadeath?

Answer: Nope as a good story is necessary to get my attention. Most of the companies now can't seem to write for crap anymore - especially WoTC!

4) Pick one of these words to describe yourself when you play in ALFA: Achiever, Killer, Socaliser, or Explorer.*

Answer: Explorer

5) Any other comments, reflections or thoughts you have about the importance (or non-importance) of permadeath in relation to your roleplaying and gaming experiences and preferences.

Answer: Without risk what's the point?

[lakhena]

I'll post a reply on the questions later, but just a quick thought here -- aren't you worried about respondent bias by soliciting public responses? If this has been addressed already, I apologize -- in a hurry here, so I haven't read all the responses yet. I just thought I'd point this out, as one grad student to another...

[paazin]

I'll post a reply on the questions later, but just a quick thought here -- aren't you worried about respondent bias by soliciting public responses? If this has been addressed already, I apologize -- in a hurry here, so I haven't read all the responses yet. I just thought I'd point this out, as one grad student to another...

Not to mention selection bias by not doing a randomized sampling and ensuring each person has an incentive to both bother to answer and answer truthfully.

[Jfis]

I'm no expert and Games Studies is a very new field for me (but very interesting), so I might have gone about this completely wrong, I can't deny that. I guess its a decision on whether to use qualitative or quantitative methods, and then choosing a specific direction within that method. I didn't give that too much thought, I just wanted this communitys thoughts and concerns, and I think I got a lot of valuable input.

I ended up using much of the input I got here, and my paper has a section on ALFA.

Its handed in and I should get a grade and some comments this week, and unless my professors completely slaughter me and say "NO you cannot show that horrible paper to anyone", I'll hand you the paper here, as you requested.

Again, thanks.