Raise dead?

[rorax]

Can anyone who had long standing character in ALFA2 share how being raised impact his character?


I know that for me, it was very confusing - some of the things made very little sense(to me at least) , and eventually contributed to the fact i willingly retired the character.

I think if i had to make the decision again today, i would have preferred he would remain dead.

Looking backwards, i think that being raised ruined something in the character story , and remaining dead would have provide a better and more suitable end.

Sadly, nowadays i think i fall to what OGR described as "Wanting to play the character some more" syndrome.

[CloudDancing]

See I think what you are missing is that its not that people WANT to be raised personally and DM raises them personally.

It is about that character having friends that love and care for them enough to spend ALL their worldly posessions to bring back that persons they care about. But there is a flip side to that, for example, one of the rezzes I did was mainly based on guilt for getting that character killed.

It is, in it's esscence, entirely and utterly selfish of the people left alive in fact. I have seen soooo many people die as player, facilliated some very meaningful deaths for players who asked to be able to say goodbye, and been a part of one rez as a player and done only one as a DM.

Case in point, as jmecha mentioned, Laque. As one of his remaining friends, my PC would have raised him. But early on, Laque made it clear to Trapper that was NOT what he would ever want and no TRUE elf would want that for themselves either. He was very big on pointing out what REAL elves did hehe. We RP'd this dicussion right before they were both probably going to die in a huge battle in fact with very serious overtones.

But this brings up a point. I know one faction that went entirely broke to bring back their PC in those dark confusing days on BG during the transition. The Sword's Edge did the same in the case of Lettinus and the equivalant of a small farm was spent, thus bankrupting everyone AND forcing them to accept work that lead them ultimately down into the Underdark.

So in esscence that "gold sink" provided a very good motivator toward progressive RP.

And it also proves, if you don't have friends or social connections in character, those options will always be closed to you. And I will go as far as to say those connections could be DM'd characters OR player characters. There is no reason that a high roller with DEEP connections to their religous/political faction could not recieve a rez by a DM'd NPC they worked with. That is IF they make the effort to create the backstory or seek out those connections with a DM.

But again, in the end, you gotta have friends somehow.

[dergon darkhelm]

Can anyone who had long standing character in ALFA2 share how being raised impact his character?


I know that for me, it was very confusing - some of the things made very little sense(to me at least) , and eventually contributed to the fact i willingly retired the character.

I think if i had to make the decision again today, i would have preferred he would remain dead.

Looking backwards, i think that being raised ruined something in the character story , and remaining dead would have provide a better and more suitable end.

Sadly, nowadays i think i fall to what OGR described as "Wanting to play the character some more" syndrome.

The rez of your earlier PC should not be used a model for how it should be done, imho. There were problems with it. I can understand how having that unique perspective could color your view of ressurection magics in ALFA.

It can be done seemlessly, IC and without confusion in the appropriate circumstances.

[Castano]

I think too many of our encounters have to high a risk of death. we need a spectrum of encounters. And fighting something where you have a 98% chance of winning should not be labeled "farming" or otherwise looked down on - just dock the XP (which we already do). After all, Drizzt still killed orcs to save the villagers.

If anything, I think players are seeking out the more challenging encounters too frequently because they give out XP and loot. That's OOC too.

As for raise dead it is an integral part of the DnD rule set. I'm never a fan of so completely rewriting the ruleset through house rules that we end up playing a different game. If you want to do that then write up your own rule set and drop any mention of DnD from the game documentation other than to say that we have altered the DnD ruleset. We can and should stick as close to the rules as possible, given the nwn2 tech limitations, otherwise why did we spend so much time altering spells and adding skills to match actual DnD.

That being said, raise dead should only be available via a quest or have compelling IC reasons, otherwise the cleric will not bother and/or the PC would not want to come back. So you need 3 factors (1) willing cleric and (2) willing dead PC (3) diety willing to grant the spell knowing what it will be used for.

I think on CvC, rarely have I heard of one where the victor PC didn't mutilate/burn/hide the body, and I think a lot of this had to do with 2 things (1) liberal use of raise dead by different DMs and servers - at one point some servers actually let you do it via dialogue with a spawned priest combined with (2) PvP as opposed to CvC - where certain players had it out for each other, and thus would either try to come back with their old PC via raise dead and go after the victor (thus the victor better burn that corpse), or where they suspected the victor would then find an excuse to go after the player's next PC (so I better bring back my old uber PC to the game if I want to survive round 2).

Aside from intra-faction fighting, I see little reason for there to be CvC on our servers...Faerun has how many people on it? How many NPCs live in TSM, BG? Will you really be going after another PC faction versus an NPC faction? Will you really hunt a PC across servers - and be able to find them?

This issue of player versus player permeates us - it is the root of all the threads on pickpocketing, PCs fighting each other, robbery of pChests etc.

I think it would be great if our players stopped playing such confrontational PCs AND if every confrontation, RP'd comment etc. did not lead to violence.

I'd like to note you can't win ALFA, only enjoy each game.

[kmj2587]

I think Raise Dead should stay because it still manages to impose real costs on the player while being limited in ability.

Assuming for the moment that we're dealing with characters in the level range that makes Raise Dead a feasible option, but aren't yet high enough level for a full Resurrection to make an appearance, their wealth levels are such that five thousand gold pieces represents a pretty high price to pay. It likely involves everyone in the party selling off trinkets or the forfeiture of one the dead PC's prized items or something of that nature. The PCs likely don't have anywhere near five thousand in gold pieces, so not only do they lose the items, but they end up having to sell off more than five thousand gold worth of wealth considering that the merchants don't buy anything for anywhere near its actual value. A DM may have an NPC take such items for full value in trade for the service, which I have seen before in ALFA1, but if you're looking to make Raise Dead a less common event, making them sell the items at their normal sell value will make the price a much heavier burden.

PCs that are high enough level for an actual Resurrection to be an option should be fighting monsters that are much more likely to make them need a Resurrection. If you get Disintegrated, Raise Dead isn't doing you any good. It's an entirely feasible that encounters designed for characters level 13+ should be able leave a PC in a state that requires Resurrection rather than Raise Dead, which would help to maintain the price as an incentive to not die.

The other penalty is the XP penalty that comes with being brought back from the dead. A PC loses anywhere between [0.5(Level at death - 1)]*1000 and [0.5*(Level at death - 1) + level at death]*1000, representing a PC who dies immediately after gaining a level and a PC who dies just short of their next level, respectively. The magnitude of this penalty scales up with level as every level requires more XP than the one which preceded it, but ALFA still hands out XP at the same rate.

My point is, the penalties are pretty stiff. Stiff enough, in most cases, I believe for the incentives of the player to remain aligned with the incentives of the PC in terms of the risk/glory tradeoff. The XP you lose in a raise can represent months of work on the part of the player depending on level, play rate, and where they were in their progression when they died. PCs can look forward to the afterlife, but players don't because they're not playing a dead PC. If death is made irreversible it will make players more cautious, resulting in the potential for players more cautious than their PCs should be, and the potential that players will stop taking the high risk/high benefit chances, and that's just not very heroic.

That mouthful being said, I do think the gravity of the IC situation is often lost on people who are more glad to have their PC/IC friend back than they are considering the mind-blowing effect that the reversal of death itself should have on most people.

In ALFA1 I had a character who was a cleric capable of casting both Raise Dead and Resurrection. During my party's adventures, any loot which was not particularly beneficial to any individual was given to my character to pawn and subsequently used for the purchase or material components for both the previously mentioned spells. At one point he possessed enough diamond for two Raise Dead spells and a Resurrection. Rather than remove the spells, I think DMs should be watchful for situations like this that threaten to trivialize the costs involved in bringing a character back as it could tilt player incentives toward not caring about death as much. The loss of XP is still a big hit, but the player knows (or at least thinks) they'll come back with all their loot intact.

As for the spell Raise Dead itself, it comes with certain drawbacks and limitations that could be employed to impress on people that it doesn't just hit the reset button on death. First of all, it requires the body to be intact. Casting the spell on a body that can't survive due to a missing heart or decapitation does nothing. However, casting the spell on a body that is missing anything from a leg to finger results in an amputee. Take off a finger as a reminder for the character that death is bad news. The major limitation on the spell is that it must be cast on a character 1 day per caster level of the cleric since the time of the character's death. A ninth level cleric has nine days to Raise someone, and so on and so forth. If the materials aren't readily available, it's entirely possible for this length of time to lapse before the spell can be cast. The distances between major cities that are likely to possess clerics capable of raising the dead are such that entire period of time in which Raise is useful is likely to be spent in travel, which means that travelling to try your luck in another city is probably going to require a Resurrection.

All in all, Raise Dead represents a high cost for a solution that isn't perfect, and I think a great deal of RP value can be found in making the characters race against the clock to find a willing NPC and the necessary raw materials.

[danielmn]

Can anyone who had long standing character in ALFA2 share how being raised impact his character?


I know that for me, it was very confusing - some of the things made very little sense(to me at least) , and eventually contributed to the fact i willingly retired the character.

I think if i had to make the decision again today, i would have preferred he would remain dead.

Looking backwards, i think that being raised ruined something in the character story , and remaining dead would have provide a better and more suitable end.

Sadly, nowadays i think i fall to what OGR described as "Wanting to play the character some more" syndrome.

The rez of your earlier PC should not be used a model for how it should be done, imho. There were problems with it. I can understand how having that unique perspective could color your view of ressurection magics in ALFA.

It can be done seemlessly, IC and without confusion in the appropriate circumstances.

I tend to agree with the above sentiment. The situation could have been handled a lot more smoothly. I understand the thought process behind what was deemed acceptable, but I think the application of said process could have been handled a lot better, and it was definately outside the realm of normal raise/rez situation. I think we have distinct instances that need to be seperated out in such a discussion....

Raise/rez caused by death due to spawns/dms...
Rasie/rez after a cvc situation.

The two instances definately have different circumstances that need be taken into consideration. For instance..

Death by spawn/dm - was the body recovered before it could be looted by the spawns or opposed faction NPC's? Before the body could be defaced?

CVC has a gamute of considerations, ranging from, again, items recovered, condition of body, weather body was found, the impact of potential future cvc ect.

As a dm, I can say I have more sympathy for those that die to spawn than by cvc. For cvc, it usually (though not always) is something that has been building by pc actions for a little while...weather by words, deeds ect. I think CVC is something a lot of players consider OOC in their builds, which is definately a shame, especially for those players that really haven't planned cvc into their builds, but around rp instead. I've seen rediculously high stats, rediculously high AC, rediculously combined feats, and I've seen less than average scores and combinations in all as well, the before mentioned all culminating into the pc, and most likely the player, considering themselves more invincible than other pc's due to their build. I'm more sympathetic to someone whom obviously hasn't built toward a cvc build, than I am toward a person who has obviously taken into consideration cvc in the formation of the pc.

So we come to the problem of fairness, and how dms should treat the raise/rez question with these factors. Should a dm take the above into consideration? Should they merely overlook the above? Just a few more things to expand and open up the conversation a bit more.

As for impact...I can't comment since none of my PC's in nwn2 has experienced either raise or rez, and likely never will, though I won't rule out the possibility. On the other hand, my current pc has contributed the majority of coin for a raise of another pc once. The conditions of this raise was IC for my PC. To set the scene, two pc's died, one human and one dwarf. The dwarf received no consideration by my pc whatsoever, as explained previously, dwarves coming back, in my pc and as my veiw as a player, is a major happening, and the situation did not warrent it. The human who died was under the protection of two dwarves, both of which Garlus held in high reguard as his role as a mentor, so he felt indirectly responsible for the death. The human was also an integral part of a dm plot, so the raise, in my pc's eyes, for the human was warranted (had he been another dwarf, I doubt Garlus would have had the same IC opinion). As to how the raise effected the pc, I can't say. It did effect the dm plot, and I imagine the impact would have been apparent over time, but the human died again weeks later, and was left as dead. If the player of that pc wants to comment, he can, as again this event is so far from the current playtime to bypass meta info. Again, the raise/rez was brought about more by IC connections by those left alive than the players own wishes.

[rorax]

I wish to focus more on the "state of mind" of how being raised is portrayed by the average character. If it's something unheard of and legendary or just 'uncommon' solution for those with the right means and connections.


If for the average person, raising the dead is "achievable" solution , so it's pretty obvious that it would effect how death is being treated in both CvC or DM events. In this scenario , one should not be surprised why his corpse was mutilated after CvC event to prevent being raised.

In scenario like that, people might also discuss how they wish to be handled in case they do die(in some way or another). For example, it would not consider "weird" to say something like "In case i would die, i wish you to raise / not raise me" because it's legitimate option.


Or in the other scenario , where coming back from the dead is considered legendary, something that only happens with divine interference. I would expect characters not to speak about how they wish to be handled after death, because in their state of mind - someone who die - remains dead. The same would be for CvC event , i would expect the attacker to leave his victim after he killed him, because he would never believe there is a chance his victim would return back to life.


So the question is - which one of the two approaches fit better ALFA game world?

[Killthorne]

It's a complete variable rorax. All of what you mention fits.

~Killy~

[dergon darkhelm]

Like Killy said.....within the FR setting the whole spectrum of what you mention could apply.

As brought up in the other thread, contingency plans for "untimely" death of Sembian nobles are commonplace, with priests of varying faiths essentially being placed on retainer for their services.

While other cultures may have a great deal of reticence to alter "fate" or what have you.

Having deep in-game relationships with PCs will make it more likely that your character's wishes would be known up front.

Keep in mind though, that even in the more "commonplace" setting like Sembia above, the price of such magic would make the possibility of raising of the dead rare for all but the wealthiest members of society....nobility, *very* successful merchants and villains, and wealthy adventurers.

99% + of the gameworld population would have no hope of ever achieving such for a loved one.

[danielmn]

In scenario like that, people might also discuss how they wish to be handled in case they do die(in some way or another). For example, it would not consider "weird" to say something like "In case i would die, i wish you to raise / not raise me" because it's legitimate option.


Or in the other scenario , where coming back from the dead is considered legendary, something that only happens with divine interference. I would expect characters not to speak about how they wish to be handled after death, because in their state of mind - someone who die - remains dead. The same would be for CvC event , i would expect the attacker to leave his victim after he killed him, because he would never believe there is a chance his victim would return back to life.


So the question is - which one of the two approaches fit better ALFA game world?

As for my own pc, he's never discussed IC the option of others bringing him back from the dead. I guess it is so ingrained within his own being his own beleifs that he'd find the conversation completely unneccessary to discuss. I believe Jmecha had it right when appropriating the belief to elves as well...

I suppose frequency does depend on race. I would think it a lot more common for a human to be brought back, than an elf or dwarf. Keep in mind also that even IF the character never discusses being brought back, and IF the characters friends decided to try to bring him back after death, that there is no garuntee that the character would want to come back...so in reality, one should keep that meta info away from the friends trying to bring your character back. If you don't want to come back, they can plop 10k gold down to try to bring you back, only to learn your pc is happy where they are in the afterlife.

I can't really answer to the frequency that we want to impose on ALFA about raise/rez, as that dictates how people rp, which I am not too big a fan of. I play it is a very infrequent thing done only in the direst of circumstances, and not something to be done lightly. But again, the racial factor does key in on how I do rp the raise/rez situation.

[Veilan]

The Raise Dead spell doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack.

There's a reason assassins kill people, I guess .

[Keryn]

I read this whole thread by coincidence since i was checking the forums for something i could have missed in the last few days, and after reading it I must say even though I found some interesting questions.

From some part on I started to see something that I believe is just wrong and shouldn't happen. Several people condemning others RP, others RP reasons, the "what should or should not do" with their PCs, and whats good or bad RP in several situations.

I'm glad we still play DnD and that is a game with a set of rules, if we change the rules we will be playing something else then DnD.

Raise Dead and Resurrection are both spells part of this game we play, and it is just not that, we play 3.5v of DnD currently, which means several approaches to DnD in past can make sense or not depending on the player.

Who is right? Someone who plays the game now but still thinks 2nd Ed? Or someone who plays now and uses and applies 3.5 rules and lore?

I won't answer this, because IMO previous editions gave us some flavor and ideas and most people still prefer to look at it and assume such lore as valid and not making things up, fact is if we analyze the game back then many things were different and to some situations there was also something to balance them out (others not really). In any case in 3.5 like there is no restriction on raises in all races, and there are several references in canon to cases where this happened.

Ultimately you can decide that you don't want to do it, but to condemn others for doing it is just absurd, I'll grab the elven line dropped by so many, and specially by cloud. As stated so many times, probably the most known case and often used as a example is the resurrection of Fflar former Captain of Myth Drannor in the Akh'Velahr. He was brought back to help fight an enemy.

Fflar was killed on 15 Flamerule 714 DR in the Fall of Myth Drannor, after which he went to Arvandor, but he was resurrected by Seiveril Miritar on 20 Ches, 1374 DR, in order to take up Keryvian in battle against the daemonfey invasion of Faerûn.

I suppose this iconic figure is not a "REAL" elf, because he doesn't fit in some peoples vision, but in truth its fits in 3.5 Ed DND, and thats the game we play.

I don't know about cases in Dwarves since it is a race i have not played with much, but I wouldn't be surprised to find events like this one.

Now on feelings and motivations as pointed out by some folks, each to their own, and if we are going to start debating motivations of each PC this will never end. Love, power, revenge, anger, guilt, lust, do you need more?

Obviously like in every set of rules, this spell also has some rules, some requirements, which get easier as PCs get higher in level, like in many other things in this game, at lvl 1 a +2 Sword seems like a dream, but at lvl 10 should be something the PC would aim to have legitimately. Once again at lvl 1 5000 GP, is unthinkable, and at level 10 if we look at our own wealth standards, 5000GP is something doable. So yes like in many other things in this game being higher level makes something easier. Which doesn't mean a group doesn't join and strip down selling everything to raise their beloved friend. Like cloud mentioned its about building a social network and friends willing to do it, and then we have the case of Lettinus who was raised several times, because his friends wished it so and made all possible efforts for it.

Now on something Castano said, you don't win in ALFA, and building confrontational PCs who take pride in luring other PCs to death like situations will eventually lead to two things, your either successful and become the most feared villain around, or you fail, and this is where I think it is hard to handle it. DND is in its base a setting where Good eventually wins over the evil forces. So by saying this it is likely that in 90% of the situations an obvious evil PC will meet his death sooner or latter, specially after he showed his true colors. It requires stomach to deal with it no doubt. But many experienced players also state it is when they have their best moments and the most exciting RP situations.

In the end I ask myself why was this question made. People like Jmecha and Danm dont like it and say "Ey i wont do it", its their option, but they also respect when others follow a different path so, deep down its up to each one no one forces you to resurrect your PC, if your able to RP it well or not its a different matter, but I could arguably say i think PCs in many other situations are also not RPed accordingly, and I don't banish the player for it. Its a learning process, for those willing to learn the game and the RP mechanisms.

[AcadiusLost]

Fflar was killed on 15 Flamerule 714 DR in the Fall of Myth Drannor, after which he went to Arvandor, but he was resurrected by Seiveril Miritar on 20 Ches, 1374 DR, in order to take up Keryvian in battle against the daemonfey invasion of Faerûn.

For what it's worth, the high priest of Corellon who performed that True Rez knew fully well that he was violating traditional elven culture; it was performed in secret, with the elven hero brought back for a particular goal (the retaking of Myth Drannor) which the priest believed was Corellon's will. Even after bringing him back, Fflar's identity was kept secret from all but a very chosen few in the elven expeditionary force, presumably because it would have caused widespread outrage.

In NWN2 days, I had one PC (human) who received an IC rez... it was following a messy set of somewhat OOC events that could have been handled as a quick rollback/tech rez, but instead was played as IC in order to try to make a more interesting story out of the ongoing plot. It wasn't a tough decision to accept that rez, as it felt like a stand-in for a rollback (incidentally, this sort of "play it IC even though it's a bug/OOC/etc" is something I definitely don't encourage DMs to perform). However, when the same PC legitimately died about a month later, in a situation where he might have conceivably received an IC rez, I essentially felt like I couldn't accept one if it were offered, because of the previous one- the IC death yo-yo is frustrating on all sides, really. I much would have rather had a rollback/tech rez, then been able to accept an IC rez later- once in a PC's life, a rez can be a major life-altering event and a source of some really excellent RP... twice in a row though, it just feels wrong to me.

The rest of my NWN2 characters have stayed dead, as would my present one (dwarf).

That said, I had a very longlived PC in NWN1-ALFA days that had 2 IC rezes (half-elf), the first was at level 1 or 2, involved many PCs banding together to raise the money, etc. Second one was midplot of a major quest several RL years and 7-8 levels later, which was a much tougher call. Ended up adding a lot of depth and good RP to the character, so I was satisfied with how that worked out. Likely would not have taken another were it offered.

[fluffmonster]

IC attitudes toward rezzes really depend on the PC. I had one scholarly follower of ogmha. He was offered a rezz, but what true scholar would turn down the opportunity to peruse Ogmha's libraries? Declined. Another PC was a craven, self-centered rogue...this PC had no problems accepting a rezz, and may have gotten more than one with little more than an 'all is well' attitude towards the affair. Individual experiences should thus vary by PC.

OOC attitudes toward rezzes should really depend on the IC circumstances.

As for frequency...hard to say. Everything about adventuring and adventurers is a distinctly unusual lifestyle. I probably wouldn't want to see rezz-o-matics in game, but I'm sure in FR they exist.

[Keryn]

AL exactly you just made my point. IMO that characters that stir the scenes are exactly those who go against the odds, who did something different for whatever reason if justified, and those moments open new doors for outstanding RP, for situations where otherwise nothing would ever happen.

I'm not one who supports the "cliche" type of PC where everything seems to go wrong, there should be some sense of normality, but at times those deviations from the norm bring in so much to the table. Common sense does play a big role obviously.

We should not forget out PCs are heroes, adventurers, and even though we are connected to certain norms to follow we do have room to RP and make our own history, with the consequences that each action we take may bring over our PC.