a warning to hoarders: don't die

[oldgrayrogue]

If the technical bugs that existed when this was last discussed no longer exist, it seems like something that would benefit the entire player base. Maybe a few of our talented builders/scripters would be willing to devote their time to such an effort if asked. Keryn's suggested way of handling the P-Storage seems right on the money to me -- charge for it for a specific time period, move it to a staging area beyond that time period for absent players who don't renew their "lease" (with an OOC notice to the player that the items will be permanantly lost if we do not hear from them by x date) and then the items disappear or are auctioned off beyond a set time period. Eminently fair and IC. And I disagree that the storage house should OOC not be able to be robbed. I just think it should be off limits unless a DM is present.

Since I have zero technical know how, if this is implemented I would be willing to volunteer to draft a "P-Storage Policy and Rules" statement, as well as a "form" OOC notice that would go out to the players who disappear, and even the dialogue trees for the NPC scripts if that would help.

[Sandermann]

The way it was handled on WD in the player boarding house there was fairly simple.

The occupants of rooms were listed on the DM forum, and the PCs had to pay each (RL) week. If no payment was forthcoming for three weeks then youd go in with a DM Avatar named appropriately, empty out their stuff and save the Avatar (thereby saving their stuff and the room would become free again.

If we knew the PC was deceased then their goods would be sold off periodically, if we werent sure, or we knew the player was just absent for whatever reason, it would be held indefinately.

So long as variables arent being saved on items (which they shouldnt be, save the DMFI tool which cant be dropped anyway) then this works fine. If a player comes back and has a key to a room thats no longer theirs, they are not allowed to enter the room by the rules (you cant enter another PCs property without a DM on to adjudicate) and we'd take it off them as soon as we had the chance (the locks had been changed).


edit: the system wasnt scripted at all, it required a DM in order to hire a room or pay your rent. Never was a drama cos its a <5 minute job for any DM to do.

[danielmn]

Most likely what always happens. People are more than willing to talk about what is needed, but no one will step up to do it.

Edit: I was snarky. Sorry. To sum up, we debated affordable, accessible rental rooms and associated pStorage on the TSM forum at the start of march this year. Player Admin voiced support for affordable and accessible pStorage for players. The idea was basically left to die when dan (HDM of BG at the time) said he and the powers that be found that idea too much of a hassle and preferred players to buy a house (not really that cheap or accessible.)

So its not that nobody was willing to go ahead and do it, its that the idea was shot down.

"And I believe the current powers that be, including me, don't really like the rental scenario. It leaves some things open upon death, as well as something else a dm will have to keep records on/track of. It's much simpler to do a PC bought house than rental apartment. A lot less hassle there."

This answer was more in line with rental properties than actual P-storage itself. I personally suggested this after....

"There's a lot of should haves in there, when I've done without storage my entire career in NWN2. I suppose a "bank" can be made, where storage is issued at a price, locked gate requiring a key ect. If there's someone willing to work on a project such as that. Otherwise, I believe most temples have p-storage for the faithful. Claims of SHould haves are a bit much, imo...there'd be a lot of cleaning out of lockers for all these level 1's who die and should have p-storage."

"I think a banking system would probably be the best way to solve that...the lockbox/specific key for storage for a one time fee would solve a few concerns as to storage."

As far as p-storage goes, I happily, in that time, built a guild manor with storage in it. Also for the OUTRAGEOUS AND EXORBITANT PRICE OF 500 gold, you could have a 1 room dwelling with p-storage if that was the players need, something easy and quick to build, much less so than rental properties and keeping track thereof.

That you associate my comments about rental properties with P-storage says a lot about what you veiw a property to be for. I in fact did not shoot down the idea of p-storage, but did offer an alternative that NO ONE FOLLOWED UP ON. Besides that, I am not HDM of TSM, so it could have easily been done there by now if Someone really wanted to hash out a solution to the problem with the HDM of that server. Didn't see anyone take up the banner there, unless I am mistaken. I had little staff, little time to build rental properties, and had a bunch of other duties on my own server to take that banner up myself. No one approached me specifically about the issue. The HDM of TSM offered the same opinion as I in IRC at the time. Weather that opinion has changed or not, I have no idea. Be as snarky as you want mate. I don't mind one iota.

If the idea had been approved, it would have been ME building it, ME scripting it, ME keeping track of Rentals, ME Deciding what to do when a pc died or vanished. I shot it down partially because I DID NOT HAVE THE GD MANPOWER AT THE TIME to deal with it, and NO ONE was helping out with the server at that time except myself and two other dms. I stand by my original statement sir. Good day to you.

[Keryn]

I must agree partly with Dan here. While I think rental would be cool, i dont see 80% of PCs up to level 5 needing P-storage.

Mages already get it at the uni and those are the ones who suffer more with this, then like Dan said temples also have p-storage. And im of the opinion only established PCs should get housing IG, its a matter or common sense, if most PCs die between level 1 and 5, having Pcs under level 5/6 buy houses is ridiculous since it would bring all kinds of troubles.

Including P-storage in a PC housing/room is easy and quick, and doesn't bring in many of the issues that were mentioned above. Also...

Housing is not that expensive if you accept to have at first a cheap room, which can go well under 1k gp, more like around 700 If I'm not mistaken which isn't expensive at all... Now if you wish luxury thats another thing.

I think this whole issue came from a non-existing problem, yes Sywyn carries a lot of things, but there is a reason why I never tried for housing even though Im a med/high level, that reason is IC, and had nothing to do with the Team not granting me a house.

So if anyone can tell me a PC who needs desperatly a p-chest and cannot get it I'll start to beleive we have a problem that needs to be adressed, but since in BG 90% of the PCs have a p-chest, and in TSM, the higher level established PCs also have access or can have if they look for it... I'm not inclined to think we have a problem, certainly we should not force people to get a p-chest for OOC reasons too...

[Sandermann]

Well I for one have not said it was a problem, just another means to immersion. Id rather put in some rentable p-storage and see PCs go adventuring with a sensible amount of gear than have PCs carrying two or three sets of armour about, half a dozen weapons and three dozen potion, scrolls and various trinkets.

[johnlewismcleod]

Sand is right, of course. My PC has p-storage and I intend to start using it.

Many PC's don't have access, however, or and we as DM's should be tolerant of those that either don't have access, or are the types that would carry what they use with them.

Good points made by all, I think...it certainly got me thinking on the subject, heh.

[paazin]

The idea of having a central repository with pchests in some city would be a fine one.

A rather keep it simple stupid approach with the problem of people lugging around much too much gear.

[Castano]

I like the warehouse idea and we are implementing that for Moonshaes. Yes you could rob it under DM supervision if you had a team capable of entering and carrying out the goods, which would be almost impossible and if you were not using meta-info to select it from among the many many robbery targets in town. (not saying it would always be meta to rob the p-chest warehouse - if a high level went to the tavern and boasted he hid a quest item in the most secure of warehouses at such and such address...well now you have a reason

For those PCs wanting to rob a p-chest warehouse without any reason - why are you choosing the p-chest warehouse over the other 10-50 warehouses in town - many of which store highly valuable NPC goods? Seems a bit meta to me .

For PC goods - how would you know just which chest to get to. Unlikely you would have the time to find the one chest, among hundreds with the +1000 sword of doom in it. Enjoy your random warehouse loot .

[Brokenbone]

I like the warehouse idea and we are implementing that for Moonshaes. Yes you could rob it under DM supervision if you had a team capable of entering and carrying out the goods, which would be almost impossible and if you were not using meta-info to select it from among the many many robbery targets in town. (not saying it would always be meta to rob the p-chest warehouse - if a high level went to the tavern and boasted he hid a quest item in the most secure of warehouses at such and such address...well now you have a reason

For those PCs wanting to rob a p-chest warehouse without any reason - why are you choosing the p-chest warehouse over the other 10-50 warehouses in town - many of which store highly valuable NPC goods? Seems a bit meta to me .

For PC goods - how would you know just which chest to get to. Unlikely you would have the time to find the one chest, among hundreds with the +1000 sword of doom in it. Enjoy your random warehouse loot .

+1

ALFA cities, buildings and all that are abstract (and on a robbery related note, shops are probably the most abstract of all.... do they really have 100,000gp worth of goods laying on a counter, or is the shop interface representing a dude describing things to you that he can have a team of guards bring to the shop on an hour's notice from a secure freakin' bunker someplace?)

A simply tooled row of chests #1-20 is an easy solution. A realistic on may have zero chests, instead, make a request and a dude walks away to come back an hour later from an ultra-secure location with a single safe deposit box, after doing whatever secret protocols there may be with whoever is getting paid the big bucks below to guard it. May turn out the chests are actually all in some retired adventurer's bag of holding hidden under a particular lead-mortared brick hidey hole in a cellar full of fire-trappy, glyphy decoy boxes.

[johnlewismcleod]

For those PCs wanting to rob a p-chest warehouse without any reason - why are you choosing the p-chest warehouse over the other 10-50 warehouses in town - many of which store highly valuable NPC goods? Seems a bit meta to me .

Agreed...it "seems" meta...but the problem is that as we stand now, if we do introduce a warehouse it will be the only real warehouse with pickable locks and lootable chests IG. It a bit self-deceptive to expect a rogue to pretend he/she is picking locks that aren't there and looting and imaginary buildings.

So if we put p-storage in it would best be done with some complimentary scripting:

a): put some NPC guards in that will recognize a thief if they make a successful stealth or don't pass a bluff check or, better yet...if they do pass a bluff check and gain entry, still be required to pass a stealth check to actually pick a lock in the guards presence.

or

b): make the P-storage pick proof, but get some actual houses/warehouses IG that have guards and can be successfully robbed (albeit with appropriate risk).

What we have currently is a activity starved environment for naughty rogues, and if we put public p-storage in that is pickable/lootable and then tell them it's meta to try and rob them...well...it's a bit unfair IMO.

[oldgrayrogue]

I think P-Storage, wharehouse or no wharehouse, should be lootable by a rogue but only with DM supervision. I did not imagine that rogue PC's would just loot the P-Storage "bank" just for the sake of loooting it, but rather an IC scenario where the PC knows that a certain other PC has acquired something valuable and RP's discovering where they are storing it etc. Stealing another PC's stuff is tantamount to CvC in my view, but a type of CvC that can be done without the other player physically logged on (which is meta) so its just not fair. That's why I think it should be only with DM supervision and for the right IC reasons. I really don't think meta is a concern at all if this is followed.

[johnlewismcleod]

That also seems fair, but the problem is catching a DM on and free to sort it

In the absence of a better solution, however, it's definitely the best offered so far IMO.

I will relate a somewhat embarrassing but true scenario, however, that may illuminate my skepticism regarding lootable P-storage that isn't scripted and guarded:

When I first joined ALFA and deployed Rugo he was still a pretty nasty little hin, and when he finally reached SM and started exploring he found the Lady's College eventually and went in and started trying to initiate dialogue with the various NPC's. Eventually he encountered a locked door, waited until the wandering PC's were not within eyesight, picked the lock and entered a room.

He picked the p-storage, and pilfered some items...nothing too valuable, but I felt fine about it at the time because I really didn't know what the chests were and felt like I was RPing the theft appropriately. I even had Rugo make an IC post on the bulletin board so his presence there could be recorded...

Only later did I feel a bit wrong about it when I discovered it was PC p-storage.

What I'm driving at is that while we can discuss this in the forums and sort what is meta and what is not easily, IG it's not necessarily as clear...particularly to new players.

[Rotku]

What OGR said. He speaks wise words.

[Sandermann]

Again to dredge up the past, the rule was no PC can steal from another PCs p-storage without a DM, and p-storage must be unpickable and in a plot flagged container.

I've not seen an amendment to that rule, and making p-storage unsecure just means no one will use it and it wont serve its purporse.

[Castano]

Again to dredge up the past, the rule was no PC can steal from another PCs p-storage without a DM, and p-storage must be unpickable and in a plot flagged container.

I've not seen an amendment to that rule, and making p-storage unsecure just means no one will use it and it wont serve its purporse.

+1

P-storage is unstealable w/o a DM for sure. Since the p-chests will not be pickable we won't have accidents like what happened back in the day - though well played I might add . Try stealing the key off a PC and contacting a DM

As for the points raised about IC thieves having nothing to rob, well that is a separate issue, which should be addressed, perhaps by having some of our rogue players nominate a DM from their ranks to run theft games! Skaug Isle on the MI beta has 6 houses in it that are random houses - so feel free to plug away at them. Though they are lootless w/o a DM to prevent farming...you can also try to rob any of the NPC warehouses/businesses anywhere, again with a DM. As always I am happy to take on RP DMs - MI has an active theives guild detailed in one of the TSR modules.