To fix permadeath

[johnlewismcleod]

How to drive players away.

Step 1: Tell them not to play when they're alone.
Step 2: Make sure the server is completely empty at certain hours, to avoid new players signing on.
Step 3: Concentrate players and DMs at specific times and focus on grand events. The ones left out will eventually leave.
Step 4: Whenever a DM leaves, "his" or "her" group will dissipate. New DMs won't find a group of their own and leave too.
Step 5: Wait until regular attrition causes all DMing to cease.

Step 1 completed.
Step 2 in progress...

Agreed...NWN PW is not PnP, it is several huge steps beyond where PC's need to be able to live, love, and toil in bewteen partied questing. And clickes are are real problem given human nature (see a recent post in SM forum that while probably well intentioned, basically sounds like a clicke recruitment * ). But that doesn't mean we need to modify permadeath feature. I recently played on a server that had respawn and it's corrupting influence cannot be resisted IMO. Even good RPer's begin to down play death and loss and focus on XP and gear.

To breathe life into PC's there must be death.

* My definition of clickes is groups of PC's that party and play together frequently to the exclusion of "outsider" PC's when it based on OOC familiarity of players rather than IC PC interaction. If it is IC to group up and exclude, fine. But exclusion and inclusion based on OOC influence is just wrong and bad for the server IMO.

Honestly, I haven't really seen it in ALFA, but I know it is a common problem all should be wary of.

[zicada]

most of the people that have died in the past couple of months, have died because they were traveling alone.

DnD is not a solo sport,

don't make soloing easier to do, we have WoW for that.

ALFA is not friendly to solo'ers. Deal with it.

How to drive players away.

Step 1: Tell them not to play when they're alone.
Step 2: Make sure the server is completely empty at certain hours, to avoid new players signing on.
Step 3: Concentrate players and DMs at specific times and focus on grand events. The ones left out will eventually leave.
Step 4: Whenever a DM leaves, "his" or "her" group will dissipate. New DMs won't find a group of their own and leave too.
Step 5: Wait until regular attrition causes all DMing to cease.

Step 1 completed.
Step 2 in progress...

How to drive DMs, builders, admins and staffers away: What you just did by complaining without contributing anything positive or useful.

[bartleby]

Alfa is about role playing and a very large part of role playing is interacting with the enviornment that is presented to your character. One means of interaction is through combat, your character confronts and conqures an obsticle in his enviornment and at times gains reward in proportion to risk.

The game engine we use was designed with combat in mind and it is therefore the most fully developed means of interaction with the world. People are engaging in it not nessicarily because they want it but because its the most rewarding system available ...

If the problem is that PCs are dying because their player is on alone or is bored and is basicly seeking some entertaining way to interact with there environment maybe we should try to present other entertaining and in some instances rewarding (in proportion to risk - ie low risk low reward probably just a few gold coins) means of interacting with their environment.

For instance:

Fishing
Safe Hunting grounds
Scribing/copying books
Herb Gathering
Fire Wood Gathering
Prayer/Meditation
Combat Dummies
Merchant Fetch Quests (maybe reward in store price adjustment instead of Xp)
Practice locks (Theives Guild)
Interactive Taverns
Aprentice Smithing (for dwarves)
Mining statics (for dwarves)
Interactive Taverns (for dwarves)
Studying (for wizards)

And there are many more that could be put done. I know that Mining, Interactive Taverns and Interactive Taverns (for dwarves) could be done by adjusting some of the Moonshae statics to be used in nwn2 ... and I beleive that there are Hunting and Gathering scripts used in BG ...

Once there are enough players each logging on with the knowledge that if no one else is about worse case senerio they can play a bit alone in an entertaining and in character way ... then players can start to meet up (or just "randomly" hang around the local meeting spot) and start to adventure with one another ... and actualy have a chance of surviving the encounter ...

Id be more than willing to try to put some of these things into TSM or BG if Curmudgeon or ayergo or people in general would like ...

[Lazlo]

Thanks Rick for the suggestions. They could definitely enhance the potential for survival in certain situations. For example, ALFA1 WD thug static where a player is bleeding to death near a heavily trafficked route, or near a rural development's main road. However, if a player is wounded in the wilds and/or captured then the chances for survival should be rare.

That said, while the scripts would be nice enhancements they're probably not entirely necessary. The problem most new players face, imo, is connecting with other players. The focus should really be on getting new players to login, band together and journey out of the taverns.

Rick's DF patrols are a good example.

[Brokenbone]

Playing single player RPGs, typically means progress through a bunch of content, whether linear or not, then it's over. Sometimes you can replay that game with different choices for different outcomes. Some games you might regenerate a map and opponents entirely, but that dips into the non-RPG realm if it's to be any good.

Playing a multiplayer game tends to require other players. Playing it alone means boredom comes quickly when all the content gets burned through. That content consists of eye candy which is simply the exploration type stuff, it's statics, and it's spawns (whether friendly/funny NPCs, or things trying to kill you). Statics are non-trivial to write, balance, implement, bugfix. Spawns though are a lot easier to just drop someplace, though balancing and bugs may also need review afterwards, like performance issues from "realistic" packs of wolves etc. being in an area, or balance issues of "well patrolled road with a swarm of monsters who would inhibit all travel except in huge and well levelled groups."

Anyhow, yeah, making a multiplayer game fun when alone is a tall order.

...

Back to "rescue" of someone within reach of good samaritans etc., it's a decent idea if scripted in a fair and clear manner. "Die" within so many feet of a "RESCUE_CHANCE_HIGH" waypoint or "RESCUE_CHANCE_LOW" waypoint, something happens with percentile chances and maybe get ported to a holding tank, whether it's local armed forces HQ, a kindly woodsman's hut with a scripted dialogue explaining what the heck happened, or even a port, NAKED, to the back room of a goblin cave in a cage where you can talk to a scripted goblin jailer without him shooting arrows through a cage at you... well, all may be fun (maybe "die" near "CAPTURE_CHANCE_MODERATE" flag in gobbo lands, who knows).

The reason though I go into scripting is to avoid a "DM petition" system. That already exists for tech rezzes. If some kind of "begging for a second chance" is envisioned, that's discretionary, and can't be guaranteed to be done in a fair manner, with no appearance of bias. Again, the prospect of fellow player complaint is lessened by the careful rollout of scripted solutions (*poof, appear in goblin cage*, must've rolled over 10% on death) vs. "oh he's the star of DM Bob's plot, of course he survived his solo goblin hunt due to a mysterious NPC rescuer."

[hollyfant]

Come play with us, zic! You're just my timezone.

Anyway, after that derailing rant (sorry Rick) here's my on the actual subject.

• Permadeath in itself is essential to the environment we're running, I think we can take that as a given. We could certainly look at ways to avoid character death, but should shy away from actually undoing it. Dead is dead.
• Good Samaritan NPCs would be nice. Would be very nice, in fact. I have however no idea how hard that would be to code, how much of a strain it would put on the server or how abusable it would be. I can guess on the latter though, and do not like what I come up with.
• DMs are to be kept out of the picture on this issue. If you die in one of their plots, then it's their call already. If you die outside of DM purview then they have no part to play in what happens next either.

The main issue is not so much permadeath, but stupideath. Dying in a way or a place you "shouldn't" have died (like Rick's polar bear on a busy road), wouldn't have died if you had anything else to do at that time or couldn't have died if the game engine made sense, that's what gets to people. Glorious deaths are glorious. Other deaths... not so.

In contrast to the other solutions offered (all with their own pros and cons) I have another one. Make the server smaller. Limit the number of "social hubs". Make sure people are more likely to actually run into each other (dead or alive). That, more than anything else, will decrease stupideath and increase fun.

Less is more.

[Mulu]

I hate respawning. It takes away any concept of courage and you simply cannot RP it well. ALFA NWN2 could use kinder bleed rules though, like those in ALFA NWN1 which worked well for years. You can make it easier to be bandaged, take longer to bleed out and more likely to self-stabilize without creating a WoW server in the process. Self-stabilizing of course still has you in significant danger of dying if whatever whacked you stayed close, but you might be able to drink that potion of invis you missed the first time around.

It's the bleed rules that keep me away from ALFA NWN2, and apparently will forever since they won't get changed. Though I am trying to get a group together to play ALFA NWN1 again.

[NickD]

* My definition of clickes is groups of PC's that party and play together frequently to the exclusion of "outsider" PC's when it based on OOC familiarity of players rather than IC PC interaction. If it is IC to group up and exclude, fine. But exclusion and inclusion based on OOC influence is just wrong and bad for the server IMO.

Excuse me? Playing with just the people you like playing with is bad for the server? Not wanting to bog down a group with too many players, diluting the roleplay, is bad for the server? Basing a group on who can actually play in the playing times is bad? Excuse me for not living in America and not being able to play in the peak playing times. Excuse me for trying to give others in the same situation as myself a group to play with. I guess I shall just have to solo because otherwise I am all that is wrong with the server.

[HEEGZ]

ALFA NWN2 could use kinder bleed rules though, like those in ALFA NWN1 which worked well for years. You can make it easier to be bandaged, take longer to bleed out and more likely to self-stabilize without creating a WoW server in the process.

I can see how this would be a welcome change. Permadeath is important, but I imagine the bleed script could be loosened. It's been long enough that I've forgotten how ALFA NWN1 differs from NWN2 in this regard. I've not had a PC bleed yet that I can remember so I'm not all that sure how it even works for either platform.

[johnlewismcleod]

Excuse me? Playing with just the people you like playing with is bad for the server?

Not wanting to bog down a group with too many players, diluting the roleplay, is bad for the server?

Not wanting to bog down a group with too many players, diluting the roleplay, is bad for the server? Basing a group on who can actually play in the playing times is bad? Excuse me for not living in America and not being able to play in the peak playing times. Excuse me for trying to give others in the same situation as myself a group to play with. I guess I shall just have to solo because otherwise I am all that is wrong with the server.

Sorry to get your hackles up, Nick. Like I said, I haven't personally seen or experienced any clicke behaviour in ALFA, and was just going by what was said in your post. My limited experience with you IG has been good, perfectly IC RP. No critisism intended there. But once again I must risk your ire here:

Playing with just the people you like playing with is bad for the server?

Yes. Excuding interaction with PC's on the basis of "I don't know them, and don't want to" is bad. I would hope that when new players show up all ALFAn's attempt to RP with them as quickly as possible and find out IC whether the PC's get along enough so that more server familiar PC's can help them get their footing. Ignoring new player PC's is, like hollyfant said, a sure way to drive them off.

If it is IC to exclude, fine. But that is found out IC, not OOC.

Not wanting to bog down a group with too many players, diluting the roleplay, is bad for the server?

If it is based on OOC decision, and not IC interaction (and particularly if it involves leaving new player PC's alone and ignored), yes. Please refer to my rant above.

We all owe it to our server and our own continued enjoyment of the game to do all we can to support other players, particularly new players.

Exclusion of PC's from RP should only be the result of IC interaction.

If we foster an "us and them" attitude IG, which as humans is a distressingly naturally thing to do, we eventually will be playing with ourselves.

Self gratification is easy, but a fairly hollow experience.

I guess I shall just have to solo because otherwise I am all that is wrong with the server.

Definitely no. I intend for my next PC to be a half-orc stud who will woo Gruuhilda off her paws and make many hideous half-orc babies with her

K....I'm stepping off my soap-box now and am done with that probably completely unneccessary rant.

[Rotku]

What's it like in NWN2?

[NickD]

IIRC:
NWN1:
Bleed out check: 1/min
Chance to stabalise with bandages: Automatic (or DCreally low... can't remember)

NWN2:
Bleed out check: 1/6 sec
Chance to stabalise with first aid kit: DC15

I think NWN2 ALFA is supposedly more in line with the PnP rules. It also means that dying PCs can't send a tell to another PC on the server telling them where they are and expect them to reach them before they die.

[psycho_leo]

Not sure on DCs to stabilize, but Nick is right that bleeding is faster in NWN2, so PCs in party have less time to get to a fallen companion. It's usually a problem when you're in tick fights. If I'm knee deep in enemies I often only don't realize immediately that another PC is in his negatives, even if he's fighting right beside me. On the other hand you could just be instamorgued in NWN1, so there's that too.

[Veilan]

Hm?

I think you bleed out equally fast in ALFA 1, until you make a roll to switch into the "slow" bleeding state. The DC of 15 should also be the same. I'm not at all aware that we changed the mechanics, I'll bring it up.

What would probably be a great boon for survivability is that if you took a hit that takes you to somewhere from -9 to -1, you start bleeding at -1 always, so that party members always have about the same window of opportunity, and your rolls the same chance, to stabilise you. I'm not sure whether it's desirable, however - if you get taken to -8, maybe you should be in more danger than if you get taken to -2.

[AcadiusLost]

Initial bleeding rate: the same

DC on the bandaging check: the same

% chance to slow bleeding to 1/minute: the same

What would probably be a great boon for survivability is that if you took a hit that takes you to somewhere from -9 to -1, you start bleeding at -1 always, so that party members always have about the same window of opportunity, and your rolls the same chance, to stabilise you. I'm not sure whether it's desirable, however - if you get taken to -8, maybe you should be in more danger than if you get taken to -2.

The NWN2-ACR bleed scripts have this, but with the limiter at -6; so the one-hit crits to morgue can't push anyone before -6. Amusingly, even the DM Kill button only drops PCs to -6 and bleeding now.

The NWN2-ACR bleed scripts also divert the attention of whatever downed your PC, so it doesn't keep attacking you.

We've had various bugs with the system at various times including:
-bandaging/first aid items being incorrectly tagged or having missing scripts
-certain checks doubling up, causing 2 HP loss in a single round in some cases.

But, those have long since been sorted out. So, I'm not really sure where the "NWN2 bleed scripts are worse than NWN1" rumor comes from currently; I'd guess it stems from players who haven't played NWN2-ALFA much lately. Really, the NWN2-ACR bleeding system is a more lenient one than in NWN1 in most respects. I even improved the text feedback during the bleeding process a few months back, so it is clearer what each of the stages are.