bardic lore

hollyfant · Post by **hollyfant** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:04 pm

Dwarves would, I think, recite long lists of previous victories, heroes and slights that must still be avenged. "Remember the Alamo", that sort of thing. And of course quote religious dogmas relating to the events at hand, especially when Orcs, Giants or Dwarven holds are involved. As for actual warcries: simple is best. You need your breath to fight, not to yodel. Races of Stone has a few nice ones:

Races of Stone wrote:Nyr doch! In an archaic dialect of Dwarven, this phrase means “Eat this axe,” but most dwarves don’t know the expression’s origin. It is among the dwarves’ heartier battle cries.
Horlemmar mernar! Another battle cry, often uttered during charges, this phrase means “Seize the ground, comrades!”

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:08 pm

SRD includes Perform rank prerequisites for any of the inspirations

D&D doesn't have inspirations; only bard song. Inspirations are an Obsidian SP invention.

Brokenbone · Post by **Brokenbone** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:26 pm

Well... 3.5 Bards do definitely have Inspirations. See the link I posted above. It's separate from "Bardic Music", there's four different flavors all collected under http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/bard.htm

Now, how Obsidian implemented any of this I'm sure is a different kettle of fish, but they are not without counterpart in the SRD. Although again, some of them I recognize (Courage for instance), others are unfamiliar (Jarring, as an example). This isn't to say these aren't found in some sourcebook or other, I've only checked SRD and Song & Silence.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:58 pm

Nope, that is Bard music.

Bard music/poetics: collection of 'songs' which are unlocked if the minimum bard level and minimum perform ranks are met, usable once per bard level per day. This includes Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage and so on.

Inspirations: Obsidian-added SP-justified permanent but interchangeable power boosts, best thought of as an Aura.

Zelknolf · Post by **Zelknolf** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:04 pm

the SRD wrote:Bardic Music

Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired).While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

Technically, you're both right. It's just that the PnP "Inspire X" abilities happen to fall under the broader category of "Bardic Music." But if we're looking for ways to RP this stuff working, "poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance" are described as the means by which a bard brings about Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.

//Edit - yeargh. My slow-assed connection made Rusty beat me to the post.
*hangs head in shame*

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:10 pm

I love the skill enhancing inspiration.

"Sneak, sneak, sneak!
Sneak through the darkness silently!
It's quite absurd,
but don't be heard,
Or your end might come quite violently!"

"Will you SHUT UP!"

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:10 pm

So, looks like we're at: Inspirations are an aura started by some bardic rp performance, which could be a joke, battlecry, song, etc. They can be maintained in silence afterwards if desired, since it has a lingering aura like effect, or be justification for continued bardic performance, as a point of personal preferance.

Sound good?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:22 pm

More like: Inspirations are another SP-only addition and we should investigate making the relevant inspirations available as bard music/poetics, as they should be.

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:19 pm

But is seems unlikely that an effect that can be maintained all day long would rely on singing / drumming or somesuch: bards would be dropping left and right from fatigue!

True and exceptionally dedicated musicians often have the chops to keep up playing an instrument for hours and hours and hours and hours.

Tribal drummers were expected to keep beats up all night long, often without ever even changing them up.

If you work on something enough and build your stamina, you can do it for a long time without noticing ill effects.

I wouldn't apply that to singing, vocal strain might make you hoarse, but even that is subject to endurance building, I think.

Demson · Post by **Demson** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:41 pm

Mulu wrote:So, looks like we're at: Inspirations are an aura started by some bardic rp performance, which could be a joke, battlecry, song, etc. They can be maintained in silence afterwards if desired, since it has a lingering aura like effect, or be justification for continued bardic performance, as a point of personal preferance.

Sound good?

Sounds good to me.

I might at times decide not to put on a performance though. I enjoy roleplaying but I am not an actual troubadour. Swinging a sword doesn't require you to be actually proficent as a swordsman, either.

As for the need to 'fix' it... I actually like it the way it is. This is not PnP, and with the rest rules, low amount of spells and low number of songs, the bard's abilities are limitted enough as it is. At least now we can make a solid contribution to a party. I say, focus your limitted resources on more pressing matters. Like the toughness feat.

hollyfant · Post by **hollyfant** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:49 pm

Considering we don't actually have any bardsongs, and lost the curse song... things should be fine as they are.

But has anyone yet managed to emote a performance with accompanying sound effect?

Vendrin · Post by **Vendrin** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:05 pm

Rusty wrote:More like: Inspirations are another SP-only addition and we should investigate making the relevant inspirations available as bard music/poetics, as they should be.

How about we focus on adding things to the game instead of removing them. I seriously doubt the bard is overpowered.

Mulu · Post by **Mulu** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:36 pm

Mulu wrote:Given that the PG high water mark is: Human straight-classed cleric with magic and good domains, and nothing that came with NWN2 is stronger than that, I think the nerfing is an overreaction. Then again, I'm playing a bard, and if they nerf bards then we'll know they've gone over the deep end for sure.

They've gone off the deep end....

The typical justification given for nerfing is CvC balance. Given that bards are quite probably the weakest class in the game, if anything admin should be looking at ways to make them stronger, for proper CvC balancing of course.

Brokenbone · Post by **Brokenbone** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:50 pm

I'm just curious where powers come from... video game designers TEND to still pluck things from sourcebooks, even obscure sourcebooks, although sometimes keeping the name only but doing their own funny implementation.

I don't know where some of the NWN2 bard powers come from yet. Maybe someone will be inspired to point it out.

Example: Inspire Regeneration = crowd can stand near a bard 7+ for a couple of minutes and get all their hitpoints back (I guess 1hp per 2 rounds). Even a cleric spamming Mass Cure Light Wounds isn't that efficient a healer... and they sure can't do that 24 hours a day. So anyhow, where's the power come from? D&D or elsewhere?

Note the above isn't a nerf suggestion, it's just "that's an odd power with a fair sized impact... where's it come from / what's it comparable to?"

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:59 pm

That's a particularly wacky one- I do believe that would also have the unusual side effect of bandaging/saving any dying PCs within radius of effect, as well. That's... a hell of a song. Enough singing and the nearly dead would stand right back up again.

For some of the song/inspirations in PnP, there are durations they linger after the song/action itself- that's potentially scriptable. Harder to implement would be ones like Inspire Confidence that linger afterwards as long as the bard "concentrates". Note also that the Competence bonuses apply to the bard him/herself as well in NWN2, whereas they don't in PnP- I actually like the flavor added by the inspiration not being a bonus to oneself (and useless in soloing).

I don't think many of these really shake game balance (regeneration radius comes to mind as one that really ought to get some attention though), but it'd be good to come to a consensus on how they're viewed/treated ingame, so we don't have some folks being bashed for playing their inspirations one way, and others being complimented on the same thing elsewhere on the same server/gameworld.