Specialist Wizard and Barred Schools

[Magonushi]

First, I figured it would be done in the same manner as our customized skills, if done at all. And as far as coding, I did the actual gameplay change in under 30 seconds. If the description is to be edited via the dialog.tlk then I could see a huge coding problem. Otherwise it's all exposed and easy to manipulate in the spellschool.2da.

I am probably missing something, but I can't see how this would be even close to the headache of adding in new skills, and that project doesn't seemed to be plagued by any lack of support. I'd like to talk about the steps that would need to be taken though more if you'd like to meet in chat at some point. If people want this I'd be willing to dedicate my time to seeing it work out.

And as to the portion about picking a school based on its prohibited school, I don't see the problem. In fact I believe it to be a boon. Right now there is no real difference between a diviner and an enchanter other than title. Everyone is just stuck with a prohibited school without much value placed in it other than balancing for NWN1's OC. Under a more 2ed style every school would have a rival, and part of a mage's choice in specializing in a school would be selecting a school sharing similar disgusts. Diviners might find illusionists to be the dead weights of society, while an abjurer would hold any conjurer in contempt for recklessly releasing their barely-controlled fury upon the world.

In some people's eyes I suppose this isn't the point of specialization. That's fine. I just think it would lead to some interesting role playing opportunities when two adventurers of the same moral alignment find they are on opposing ends of the arcane alignment.

[Veilan]

Sorry, but more clearly:

What is the gain?

Picking your favoured school on basis of the opposed school seems to be in all but a very few cases metagaming, even more so than "pick one favoured, two opposed of your choice" (which, after all, can work to highlight personal antipathies of the caster).

Maybe I got that wrong - it's why I'm asking. At the moment, it seems like a lot of effort for dubious gain to me.

[Souvarine]

I think opposed schools would give some roleplaying and background value to what is currently a weird mechanic and nonsensical system. It would mean that the choice you've made at character creation could perhaps (if you decide to roleplay it) have implications in your interactions with the "fans" of your opposed school.

A dm could use that as a plot hook too (and i think that's the best gain of it). It's like spice to a flat meal: it's not necessary but it adds another detail in the taste.

[psycho_leo]

Picking your favoured school on basis of the opposed school seems to be in all but a very few cases metagaming,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many (just cause I don't wanna say most) already do that. Even if we add a RP component affecting your prohibited school, folks will continue to do, though to a lesser degree since that would count towards the RP when encuntering other wizards and more importantly wizard guilds.

even more so than "pick one favoured, two opposed of your choice" (which, after all, can work to highlight personal antipathies of the caster).

Adding two opposed schools would be an unnecessary burden. Wizards are already deprived from a large number of PnP spells. Even if we allow RP spells, they have a "lesser value" than coded spells, cause they won't help you if a DM isn't around.

I'm not opposed to having this implemented, but I'm don't feel strongly about it either. Since we already have someone willing to do the work, I'm in favour of it as long as it's possible without mucking things up.

[Veilan]

Well, my point mostly was that if you have both schools - prohibitted and favoured - predetermined, then you really can only make an IC point about choosing your favoured school - one decision determines the other.

So, what we currently can do is choosing the favoured school. This makes sense to me, mages should be able to pick what they studied the hardest, and lose some variety as a trade-off for more spellpower. All fine and dandy.

What is being proposed is that there is a change of prohibitted schools on ground that you cannot pick each prohibitted school. This, to me, does not seem sound in any prominent IC way - which is why I've asked, maybe I'm overlooking something.
But, to me, picking your specialisation on the basis of the prohibitted school borders on metagaming. This is because the game treats the favoured school with no bonus to speak of, while the only gameplay effect lies with the prohibitted one. "What do I pick to lose the least important stuff..." is the decision being asked to be allowed here, which I'm not supportive of - you should pick on grounds of your favourite school. "I'm a diviner because my mage is inquisitive and likes to find stuff out, I have a good background here..." strikes me as valid, "I'm a diviner because illusion spells suck and I want +1 spell per day" doesn't.

Now, things would change if you could pick both schools, of course, then we'd have to do a lot of balancing headache to not see that there's one school which everyone chooses as prohibitted one (hence why I suggested having two there - getting to pick is a tangible advantage). Of course, this was just a very raw thought, playing into my streak of thought about that there's only one choice, not two to be made.

[psycho_leo]

. "What do I pick to lose the least important stuff..." is the decision being asked to be allowed here, which I'm not supportive of - you should pick on grounds of your favourite school.

That's precisely how it works now. You pick one school to specialize and you can't learn spells from a prohibited school. Some schools, such as necromancy are never prohibited though. So no matter what school you choose to specialize in, you can always cast necromantic spells.

What's being proposed is altering the system a bit so that each and every school can be prohibited depending on the specialization your wizard wishes to take. In the end I guess things might not change at all, as in people will still choose to have the "least useful" spells to be barred.

[Senor T]

Under the current system I picked my PC's school based on what I wanted her favorite school to be (conjuration). In turn, this forced my PC to have the opposing school of transmutation, which is a bit silly as now I have to make up some reason why she doesn't like it. I'd have a much easier time RPing necromancy as the opposing school instead if I had a choice. Ultimately though, I think it's a fairly moot point if this is how the game engine is designed, though I do greatly appreciate the thought being put into it. It would be nice to at least have each school have its turn as favored or opposed.

Really, it's about the RP, and while most folks will make the choice to take a favored school, maybe someone REALLY wants to play a mage that HATES HATES HATES those freeking abjurers. I mean, what's with all that abjuration?! Grr! It really ticks me off! ARGH, I'd never be caught dead casting a abjuration spell! ZOMG!!!!

[Veilan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but many (just cause I don't wanna say most) already do that.

If that indeed is the case - and I think it isn't, I've seen many mages who really picked their schools on the roleplaying aspects of the favoured school - then I think my point not to facilitate that line of action is all the more valid, and we do not need to offer more choice for character optimisation there.

I'm just not convinced how the current situation is a burden or punishment for our roleplayers atm, in general I'm in favour of allowing the good stuff and policing the bad apples, instead of denying things broadband just to make sure there's noone abusing it (that said, it's of course nigh impossible to police this, and I'm not suggesting it).

T makes an interesting point, then again, lack of proficiency in a school does not have to explain your dislike for it - you can dislike a school while still being inept in another. In fact, I figure an anti-abjurer might even want to study how to deal with his enemy's spell. But I guess it all differs how we interpret the reason why a school is prohibitted.

Could maybe someone quote the official explanation? That could possibly be helpful in understanding the arguments.

Thanks,

[Magonushi]

Really, it's about the RP, and while most folks will make the choice to take a favored school, maybe someone REALLY wants to play a mage that HATES HATES HATES those freeking abjurers. I mean, what's with all that abjuration?! Grr! It really ticks me off! ARGH, I'd never be caught dead casting a abjuration spell! ZOMG!!!!

And ultimately that's why I did this for my own characters. My latest character hates necromancy and wanted it to be barred.

Veilan, If you approach this from a meta/PGing perspective, which it sounds like you are, I doubt you'd find a mage who would willinging have any of the currently protected schools (necromancy, abjuration, and evocation) taken out of their repertoire of spells.

[psycho_leo]

Could maybe someone quote the official explanation? That could possibly be helpful in understanding the arguments.

A school is one of eight groupings of spells, each defined by a common theme. If desired, a wizard may specialize in one school of magic (see below). Specialization allows a wizard to cast extra spells from her chosen school, but she then never learns to cast spells from some other schools.

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school.

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

A wizard can never give up divination to fulfill this requirement.

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

As I understand it's not a matter of hating the school or schools you drop, although you can certainly RP it that way. It's more of a matter that if you want to take extra time studying a certain group of spells you have to drop the ball somewhere else. I also certainly don't agree that it is meta to choose what school you want to forfeit, since it's basically a choice on what you don't want to study.

[JaydeMoon]

When you pick a favored school, you dont have to explain why you 'don't like' the prohibitted school.

It's not a question of not liking the prohibitted school, it's a question of liking the favoured school so much that you're willing to let the prohibitted school slide to the wayside.

It's not, "Oh, I don't like transmutation!" (which is a harsh school to lose, lulz), it's "Damn, I love calling on neat little things to help me get through my day so much that I guess I can do without all those other neat and useful spells."

Where the problem seems to actually lie, imo, is in the application of the granted bonus for choosing a favoured school.

In 3.5, the payback is that you get to cast an extra spell from each level of spells you can cast from the chosen specialized school.

In NWN, the payback is that you can cast an extra spell from each level of spells you can cast.

Now, I know that perhaps mages should be trusted to follow the PnP guidelines, but 1 it's not enforceable, and 2 it adds an extra weakness in some cases.

HAVING to hold an extra slot in Conjuration when you can only have one summon/ally at a time is a platform port weakness relative to PnP where you can use all your spell slots on summons and storm a castle by yourself.

Due to the various issues involved with specializing schools and the ideas behind it, I think, in the end, it's not important to be able to choose your prohibitted school, and if you can't choose necromancy as a prohibitted school so be it. We can't make sure you only use your extra spellslot for the favoured school

Trade off.

Mind you, this is just one thought. Another part of me sees the value of each school having an opposing school, like in 2d ed.

If you approach this from a meta/PGing perspective, which it sounds like you are, I doubt you'd find a mage who would willinging have any of the currently protected schools (necromancy, abjuration, and evocation) taken out of their repertoire of spells.

From a PG perspective on a non evil, or good mage class, necromancy is useless. I'd pick any school that got rid of it.

[Magonushi]

From a PG perspective on a non evil, or good mage class, necromancy is useless. I'd pick any school that got rid of it.

Eh? I thought Necromancy had plenty of neutral spells as well as spells that specifically hurt the undead like undead to death.

[AcadiusLost]

From an IC perspective, I like the principle of specific opposed schools working thematically- as compared to the "choose two schools you didn't want to cast anyway" 3.5E handling of the opposed schools. Since NWN(2) locks us into a defined school opposition anyway, it doesn't seem unreasonable to balance it out as suggested.

The only problem I see with it, is that it's going to come as a surprise to anyone making a specialist mage- since we can't change what's available at character creation, we have to pull a switcharoo on the hapless player. On the other hand, in an odd way, this comes down on the unfavorable side for the average hypothetical metagamer- while the favored school chosen at character creation remains the favored school ingame, the barred school gets switched around "unexpectedly"- so those who are choosing based on the banned school get thrown for a loop, at least unless they're studying up on all ALFA's customizations.

The part that would be technically nontrivial would be getting the new specialist wizard's spell selection (from character creation, before the haks came into play) adjusted to fit the proper rules. We'd have to step through their entire spellbook, purging any spells from the nonpermitted school (possible, I think, not too hard), keep track of how many were removed, then somehow offer or autoassign an equal number of other spells, perhaps from the previously banned school. (Not sure how that would be best done, though maybe we could preselect some, since they'd be 0th and 1st level only). Otherwise we end up penalizing players for not searching the forums/wiki/etc before rolling up their character.

[hollyfant]

Why not purge them all then, give some extra gold and provide a spell scroll merchant to let them recreate a spellbook from scratch?

[psycho_leo]

I don't see where you all got the idea that it's bad to choose your prohibited school. A wizard's barred school is not something he must hate or is somehow incapable of learning (although you can say whatever the hell you want. It's your PC after all). It's something he decided not to study cuz he wanted to dedicate extra time to some other school and he likes the others more or finds more useful than the one he dropped. In PnP you get to choose the barred schools. They're not forced on you. It's a matter of choice. NWN doesn't let you choose, but it also doesn't force you to have 2 barred schools. Guess it's a fair trade off. Besides, if a new player doesn't read the manual or asks around he's bound to find "surprises" when playing in ALFA.