Thanks for your feedback, Amar. It should go without saying that we have to innovate and be creative in order to build a world that players want to explore, but don't discount the folks that are building and scripting and putting in a lot of time to bring about NWN2 servers. There is work being done even if it's not apparent or glorifying.
Admittedly, individual preferences still take precedence over the long term interests of the project as regards anything new. But that's democracy and it has its pro's and con's.
Stopping By
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
Committee work.
Odds on you'll get plenty of it out in the real world too.
-Bill
Odds on you'll get plenty of it out in the real world too.
-Bill
- Currently NWN1 ALFA: Ryld Ky'bler
Currently NWN2: Gwindor Faelivrin, still not actually dead!
Formerly: Timyin Tim, Glorfindel Inglorion and Beleg Thalionestel amongst others.
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JaydeMoon
- Fionn In Disguise
- Posts: 3164
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:03 pm
- Location: Paradise
- Contact:
Bah! I'm just giving you a hard time, Danubus, in the 'still here' AND in the 'WoW thing'... good naturedly. Maybe hard to tell when your always on the defensive. The 'still here' is a rib at everyone (including myself) that has 'quit' and still comes back for more. The MMORPG references... well, everyone who plays MMORPGs deserves to be made fun of and should accept it with a bit of humor... hell there are webcomics out there that do it and I imagine most folks who play MMORPGs find them at least as funny as I do.
And I've given my HDM flak for it as well. He ain't immune. Did you know he plays Guildwars! ZOMG, NERD!
But since you can't sift the light hearted jabs out of the all the attacks you call on yourself, I suppose I'll stop. Hard to take a joke when you've got a bad attitude about everything.
As for your statements to Rotku about censoring everyone or anything who says something the community doesn't like, it's amazing that we have such a policy but here you are, uncensored and talking shit about this and that. The only things I've seen 'censored' from you are direct attacks at one or two members in particular. Funny thing is, when they bite back, those posts get moderated as well.
There was also a big long 7 page thread on Planetouched that didn't get censored, despite attacks on Lead's policy on the decision process, a mistaken jab at how the PA runs thing, and continued attacks on the DMs that voted against the option. Maybe the Lead was hasty in locking it, but he only did so after it became apparent that the same four people were runnin off their mouths (including me) with no new information to present.
While I do not agree with the negativity that comes from Indio when he makes blanket statements pertaining to the value of contributions given to ALFA outside of building servers, I will say that nobody will take seriously people who come around and throw their opinions about like they should matter more than anyone else's (which is what everyone one of us is who pound our opinions into the rest of the community daily: you, me, inaubryn, indio, fluff, etc, etc, etc) but then turns around to 'play WoW' or involve themselves elsewhere, putting the words here but there energy someplace else.
Why should I listen to what you have to say if you aren't going to follow your actions with deeds? Example: Legionnaire may play WoW or whatever (frikkin NERD), but he DMs almost everyday for his playerbase, is constantly making updates for himself and his team... maybe that doesn't help get NWN2 servers going, but it's part of keeping ALFA alive and going while servers get online and is an invaluable contribution.
Amar: I know it's not NWN2, but we don't know where your last PC went... we've had dedicated sessions since you left, an engaging story and sideplots and all the current players involved love it. The DM was actually a bit sad that you stopped coming around, she liked your PC and thought it was a good fit for the group. I know it's not NWN2 but we've got a strong presence on Shadowdale that you're welcome to join (as a DM, I'd love your presence in one of my sessions), we've got several separate but interconnected plots going on that may inspire you in other areas. *shrugs* Or you can just wander off and come back again in a few months and bemoan the absence of live servers then as well.
And I've given my HDM flak for it as well. He ain't immune. Did you know he plays Guildwars! ZOMG, NERD!
But since you can't sift the light hearted jabs out of the all the attacks you call on yourself, I suppose I'll stop. Hard to take a joke when you've got a bad attitude about everything.
As for your statements to Rotku about censoring everyone or anything who says something the community doesn't like, it's amazing that we have such a policy but here you are, uncensored and talking shit about this and that. The only things I've seen 'censored' from you are direct attacks at one or two members in particular. Funny thing is, when they bite back, those posts get moderated as well.
There was also a big long 7 page thread on Planetouched that didn't get censored, despite attacks on Lead's policy on the decision process, a mistaken jab at how the PA runs thing, and continued attacks on the DMs that voted against the option. Maybe the Lead was hasty in locking it, but he only did so after it became apparent that the same four people were runnin off their mouths (including me) with no new information to present.
If it's 'not as bad as it used to be', why are you still bringing it up? Apparently ALFA cares about getting new folks in, the admissions team sends motivational responses to many rejected applicants, coaching them on what they need to do to be accepted and encouraging them to try again. Sembia and Shadowdale at least welcome new players with open arms. Northern Cormyr would do so, if I know Chamu. Don't know much about Daggerdale but I imagine they'd be down for an influx of new players ready to rock it.The folks here are hostile to newcomers for the most part but not as bad as they use to be.
I challenge you to take the high road in this. You spew just as much vitriol as anyone else does. Justified or not, making changes starts with yourself. An understanding that the 'heads' dearly love this community and are very attached to it and ignoring irrelevant statements and not taking the bait when those flames come your way shows you are above the very pettiness you rail against as well as strengthening your position as a passionate, yet calm and logical voice.Instead of censoring my post or deleting it. Let it stand. Discuss it and dont flame.
While I do not agree with the negativity that comes from Indio when he makes blanket statements pertaining to the value of contributions given to ALFA outside of building servers, I will say that nobody will take seriously people who come around and throw their opinions about like they should matter more than anyone else's (which is what everyone one of us is who pound our opinions into the rest of the community daily: you, me, inaubryn, indio, fluff, etc, etc, etc) but then turns around to 'play WoW' or involve themselves elsewhere, putting the words here but there energy someplace else.
Why should I listen to what you have to say if you aren't going to follow your actions with deeds? Example: Legionnaire may play WoW or whatever (frikkin NERD), but he DMs almost everyday for his playerbase, is constantly making updates for himself and his team... maybe that doesn't help get NWN2 servers going, but it's part of keeping ALFA alive and going while servers get online and is an invaluable contribution.
Amar: I know it's not NWN2, but we don't know where your last PC went... we've had dedicated sessions since you left, an engaging story and sideplots and all the current players involved love it. The DM was actually a bit sad that you stopped coming around, she liked your PC and thought it was a good fit for the group. I know it's not NWN2 but we've got a strong presence on Shadowdale that you're welcome to join (as a DM, I'd love your presence in one of my sessions), we've got several separate but interconnected plots going on that may inspire you in other areas. *shrugs* Or you can just wander off and come back again in a few months and bemoan the absence of live servers then as well.
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Mikayla
- Valsharess of ALFA
- Posts: 3707
- Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:37 pm
- Location: Qu'ellar Faen Tlabbar, Noble Room 7, Menzoberranzan, NorthUnderdark
Danubus, the only person who has been getting heavily censored in the last two weeks is indio - I know, because I've done the moderating. One or two other posts prompted by indio's posts have also been moderated, but by and large indio is the one person whose posts are getting censored - and he is the one person to receive an infra-strike lately. I find it odd that you would now critique ALFA's leadership for censorship of you (which is not happening to any great extent) when a week ago you were asking me to censor or ban indio.
The bottom line is that a polite critique of ALFA is fine - personal insults are not. It is possible to take a critique of ALFA over the edge to the point at which the post will be moderated, but that line is pretty far out there.
The bottom line is that a polite critique of ALFA is fine - personal insults are not. It is possible to take a critique of ALFA over the edge to the point at which the post will be moderated, but that line is pretty far out there.
ALFA1-NWN1: Sheyreiza Valakahsa
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
NWN2: Layla (aka Aliyah, Amira, Snake and others) and Vellya
NWN1-WD: Shein'n Valakasha
I went through a computer upgrade, a job change, and got heavily involved in the Camarilla around that time. I lost room on my plate, and figured things had moved on. If i ever find my NWN discs I might come drop by.Amar: I know it's not NWN2, but we don't know where your last PC went... we've had dedicated sessions since you left, an engaging story and sideplots and all the current players involved love it. The DM was actually a bit sad that you stopped coming around, she liked your PC and thought it was a good fit for the group. I know it's not NWN2 but we've got a strong presence on Shadowdale that you're welcome to join (as a DM, I'd love your presence in one of my sessions), we've got several separate but interconnected plots going on that may inspire you in other areas. *shrugs* Or you can just wander off and come back again in a few months and bemoan the absence of live servers then as well.
Fortunately I have the inside knowledge that ALFA is always better when your looking from the inside out instead of the outside in.
I think the problem here is, certain people already have certain perceptions of others. For example, people perceive Danubus as a naysayer, complainer or what-not, regardless of how well meaning he may be. Some give him the benefit of the doubt and some don't. As Jayde said, we all have opinions, obviously, but we have a hard time constructively sharing said opinions. There are those of us here that think our opinions and contributions matter more than others, and the fact is they don't. Everybody who's ever participated in this project in any aspect should be no greater nor should they be considered any lesser than anybody else. I don't care if you scripted the entire ACR, built 14 servers and DM'd a 96 hour marathon adventure, that player that provides countless hours of enjoyable and memorable RP for themselves and others around them, has contributed just as much as you have to this project.
I built an ALFA 1 server from the ground up and DM'd constantly. I have been in the administration, I have played, I have built things and contributed to other servers, as well as adding technical things to the tech side of ALFA. Does that mean what I say or think has any more merit than somebody who has only played this whole time? Nope. I don't act like it does or pretend it does. I know better. Only delusional people think they matter more in the grand scheme of things. That's part of the negative side of ALFA.
The fact is, we only voice our opinions for one reason... as Danubus said, we all want ALFA to be the project we signed up for. I recently ran into a member of ALFA in-game that I haven't seen or heard from in a long time. That person was once a DM, and very active on the boards. That person is no longer DMing or bothering with the forums. Why? There are builders, players, and DMs, that want no great part in ALFA anymore. Why? Simple answer is... the vision of ALFA as they saw either never came to fruition or is no longer what it was at one time. Whether this is a fault of their own ill-conceived perception or it's actually true, I'm sure some of you will debate. But, frankly, I've been here long enough to see a lotta good people leave. Did some of them get tired of NWN? Sure. Did some of them have RL to tend to? Absolutely. Did some develop other interests? Of course. Those things happen. But, I'd wager that many have left because they got tired of ALFA for whatever reason.
I think that's all Dan and others are trying to say, no matter how tactfully or bluntly they put it. And, there are others who will defend ALFA no matter if it's good, bad, or indifferent. It's been said at least twice in the last few years... we all have similar goals, we just have different ways of wanting to obtain those goals. The ECL debates, standards debate, planetouched debate, how the elections are set up debate, whether we really need admin debate, rules and regulations debate, and any other contentious points here, are all representative of many different people wanting the world to be represented as they desire. That can certainly be a healthy thing, as we've shown and it can be a destructive thing as we've also shown.
But, what we often lose sight of is the overall vision. I don't think a single one of us applied to ALFA with the mindset of, I'm gonna go in there and change the world to suit my tastes, preferences and such. Not a one. I'll bet on that. We read the description, the mission statement and decided that this was the place we wanted to play. But over time, ALFA has engendered a culture of entitlement, and yes, for all it's good and it's bad, the democratic process is partly responsible for that. We have reached a point where everybody wants to be heard, which in itself is not bad. But, everybody wants to be heard at the expense of the original vision of ALFA. Now, did that vision, and should that vision change over time? A good case can be made that it should. Without evolution and change, things stagnate and die. But, some will make the argument that ALFA has indeed stagnated and is indeed dying. They make the argument that we won't change, we won't adapt, we strike down anything new, we refuse to implement something that may be a boon to the project on the whims of a minority. And, I'm not referencing anything in particular there, so nobody jump to assumptions.
Is their argument valid? Sure it is, just as the argument that ALFA is fine and is the best PW out there for what it is. But, instead of people breaking this down, logically and calmly, we get up in arms, we jump to conclusions, we take offense to every perceived slight. Why? Why do we have to do that? We don't bother to actually discuss things. Yes, I know we do some times. But, any legitimate discussion is always marred by tempers, sniping, nitpicking, sarcasm and the like. I'm guilty of it and let he who is without sin, throw the switch.
I'll give Alara credit in attempting to portray an argument from both sides on this planetouched thing. He probably should've had some help gathering all of the arguments for both sides, and as vehemently as I've fought for their inclusion, I probably should've helped him do that. But, when's the last time we broke down a discussion point by point and listed the pros and cons so that it's clear for everybody? I was on the WotC boards the other day and saw a "top 5 questions for..." thread, where basically members asked a gangload of questions and the most asked questions were grouped into to top 5 according to the number of times it was asked and then those 5 were to be answered by the game designers. Why not try somethin' like this when a topic that many people feel strongly about comes up? Grab the most frequently made arguments, group them into pros and cons and then break them down until only the most solid arguments stand. You could call it FAP, Frequently Argued Points. Okay, that's stupid and I'm jokin'. But, arguing at each other doesn't change minds, it only serves to reinforce defensive stances. Another thing we can try is... let's actually try it before we say it doesn't work.
Anecdote: Some years ago, some friends of mine were going out for sushi. They wanted me to come, but most black people don't or won't eat raw fish, at least the ones I know. Needless to say, these people were all white. I consider myself a very open-minded person and am almost willing to try anything once. Plus, my friend made the offer that if I didn't like it, he'd buy it. So, I went ahead and went, place called Deep Sushi here in Dallas. Anyway, it turns out that not only did I like sushi, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience even if they did trick me into puttin' too much wasabi into my soy sauce. Bastards. That shite burns. Anyway. Moral of this story is... you never know what you truly like or don't like and what may work for you or not unless you actually try it.
So, this is seriously long-winded. What can ya do? I realize that some of us are just gonna be asses no matter what goes down. To those of us that are, there's not much that anyone can really say to change that. And I realize some of us may be asses until we think better of it. To these people... let's try to keep things in perspective. This isn't about what suits or benefits you personally or individually, this is about what suits the project. And the project is every last one of us here, not just the admin, not just the builders, not just the DMs, not just the scripters, not just the players, but each and every last one of us. If we don't start putting the project ahead of our individual wants and desires... well... do I even have to type it out?
P.S. I wish a lot of you, if not all would jump on Ventrilo at some point and just talk. It makes a HUGE difference in how you relate to each other. Not to mention, people are a hell of a lot nicer speaking to each other than they are typing to each other.
God bless us. Everyone.
I built an ALFA 1 server from the ground up and DM'd constantly. I have been in the administration, I have played, I have built things and contributed to other servers, as well as adding technical things to the tech side of ALFA. Does that mean what I say or think has any more merit than somebody who has only played this whole time? Nope. I don't act like it does or pretend it does. I know better. Only delusional people think they matter more in the grand scheme of things. That's part of the negative side of ALFA.
The fact is, we only voice our opinions for one reason... as Danubus said, we all want ALFA to be the project we signed up for. I recently ran into a member of ALFA in-game that I haven't seen or heard from in a long time. That person was once a DM, and very active on the boards. That person is no longer DMing or bothering with the forums. Why? There are builders, players, and DMs, that want no great part in ALFA anymore. Why? Simple answer is... the vision of ALFA as they saw either never came to fruition or is no longer what it was at one time. Whether this is a fault of their own ill-conceived perception or it's actually true, I'm sure some of you will debate. But, frankly, I've been here long enough to see a lotta good people leave. Did some of them get tired of NWN? Sure. Did some of them have RL to tend to? Absolutely. Did some develop other interests? Of course. Those things happen. But, I'd wager that many have left because they got tired of ALFA for whatever reason.
I think that's all Dan and others are trying to say, no matter how tactfully or bluntly they put it. And, there are others who will defend ALFA no matter if it's good, bad, or indifferent. It's been said at least twice in the last few years... we all have similar goals, we just have different ways of wanting to obtain those goals. The ECL debates, standards debate, planetouched debate, how the elections are set up debate, whether we really need admin debate, rules and regulations debate, and any other contentious points here, are all representative of many different people wanting the world to be represented as they desire. That can certainly be a healthy thing, as we've shown and it can be a destructive thing as we've also shown.
But, what we often lose sight of is the overall vision. I don't think a single one of us applied to ALFA with the mindset of, I'm gonna go in there and change the world to suit my tastes, preferences and such. Not a one. I'll bet on that. We read the description, the mission statement and decided that this was the place we wanted to play. But over time, ALFA has engendered a culture of entitlement, and yes, for all it's good and it's bad, the democratic process is partly responsible for that. We have reached a point where everybody wants to be heard, which in itself is not bad. But, everybody wants to be heard at the expense of the original vision of ALFA. Now, did that vision, and should that vision change over time? A good case can be made that it should. Without evolution and change, things stagnate and die. But, some will make the argument that ALFA has indeed stagnated and is indeed dying. They make the argument that we won't change, we won't adapt, we strike down anything new, we refuse to implement something that may be a boon to the project on the whims of a minority. And, I'm not referencing anything in particular there, so nobody jump to assumptions.
Is their argument valid? Sure it is, just as the argument that ALFA is fine and is the best PW out there for what it is. But, instead of people breaking this down, logically and calmly, we get up in arms, we jump to conclusions, we take offense to every perceived slight. Why? Why do we have to do that? We don't bother to actually discuss things. Yes, I know we do some times. But, any legitimate discussion is always marred by tempers, sniping, nitpicking, sarcasm and the like. I'm guilty of it and let he who is without sin, throw the switch.
I'll give Alara credit in attempting to portray an argument from both sides on this planetouched thing. He probably should've had some help gathering all of the arguments for both sides, and as vehemently as I've fought for their inclusion, I probably should've helped him do that. But, when's the last time we broke down a discussion point by point and listed the pros and cons so that it's clear for everybody? I was on the WotC boards the other day and saw a "top 5 questions for..." thread, where basically members asked a gangload of questions and the most asked questions were grouped into to top 5 according to the number of times it was asked and then those 5 were to be answered by the game designers. Why not try somethin' like this when a topic that many people feel strongly about comes up? Grab the most frequently made arguments, group them into pros and cons and then break them down until only the most solid arguments stand. You could call it FAP, Frequently Argued Points. Okay, that's stupid and I'm jokin'. But, arguing at each other doesn't change minds, it only serves to reinforce defensive stances. Another thing we can try is... let's actually try it before we say it doesn't work.
Anecdote: Some years ago, some friends of mine were going out for sushi. They wanted me to come, but most black people don't or won't eat raw fish, at least the ones I know. Needless to say, these people were all white. I consider myself a very open-minded person and am almost willing to try anything once. Plus, my friend made the offer that if I didn't like it, he'd buy it. So, I went ahead and went, place called Deep Sushi here in Dallas. Anyway, it turns out that not only did I like sushi, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience even if they did trick me into puttin' too much wasabi into my soy sauce. Bastards. That shite burns. Anyway. Moral of this story is... you never know what you truly like or don't like and what may work for you or not unless you actually try it.
So, this is seriously long-winded. What can ya do? I realize that some of us are just gonna be asses no matter what goes down. To those of us that are, there's not much that anyone can really say to change that. And I realize some of us may be asses until we think better of it. To these people... let's try to keep things in perspective. This isn't about what suits or benefits you personally or individually, this is about what suits the project. And the project is every last one of us here, not just the admin, not just the builders, not just the DMs, not just the scripters, not just the players, but each and every last one of us. If we don't start putting the project ahead of our individual wants and desires... well... do I even have to type it out?
P.S. I wish a lot of you, if not all would jump on Ventrilo at some point and just talk. It makes a HUGE difference in how you relate to each other. Not to mention, people are a hell of a lot nicer speaking to each other than they are typing to each other.
God bless us. Everyone.
Last edited by Inaubryn on Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, when Private Pyle fucks up... I will not punish him. I will punish all of you! And the way I see it, ladies... you owe me for one jelly donut! Now, get on your faces!"
Let me clarify for you:
Its been policy in the past when someone decides someone is saying something they think is negative to ALFA that it gets deleted. You can talk about the project and ask for change and bring up the dirty laundry but its got to stay out in the open. Thats why I mentioned it in my post. I asked for it to not be deleted. I agree personal attacks should be deleted(you did a good job handling Indio) but I dont agree speaking about something touchy about ALFA should be and it has in the past. I asked for it not to be this time. Thats all.
Its been policy in the past when someone decides someone is saying something they think is negative to ALFA that it gets deleted. You can talk about the project and ask for change and bring up the dirty laundry but its got to stay out in the open. Thats why I mentioned it in my post. I asked for it to not be deleted. I agree personal attacks should be deleted(you did a good job handling Indio) but I dont agree speaking about something touchy about ALFA should be and it has in the past. I asked for it not to be this time. Thats all.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft.
Follow me on Twitter as: Danubus
Follow me on Twitter as: Danubus
Unfortunately, Helios... that's pretty much dead on. But you're wrong on one account, sir. It doesn't take months, it takes years.
But, again... y'all missed the point. Even my boy Danny Yun ain't gettin' it. He keeps throwin' the Techniques at one person when he should be spinnin' for the whole crowd. What's my DJ's name?!
But, again... y'all missed the point. Even my boy Danny Yun ain't gettin' it. He keeps throwin' the Techniques at one person when he should be spinnin' for the whole crowd. What's my DJ's name?!
"You people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, when Private Pyle fucks up... I will not punish him. I will punish all of you! And the way I see it, ladies... you owe me for one jelly donut! Now, get on your faces!"
