Do you think we should incorporate ALFA ?

Jeppan · Post by **Jeppan** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:56 pm

If we set it up in a socialist/communist country we can probably opt for collective ownership? Do we have any members in Cuba or North Korea that could set it up?

indio · Post by **indio** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:01 pm

I'd vote against this move if it came to it. Collect donations, sure, but let's make it about trust, even if that means we lose a few dollars that would otherwise be collected under incorporating.

ç i p h é r · Post by **ç i p h é r** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:41 pm

I don't believe incorporating means that ALFA all of a sudden morphs into a baby-eating Microsoft. Sure additional [minor] requirements are imposed, but we're not a "corporation" in the common sense of the word. I suspect that is what's turning a lot of people off to the idea. We will remain a HOBBYIST community and as such, the parallel to a recreational sports league is all anyone really needs to understand.

From what I'm reading, beyond adding a few burdens onto a handful of members, the fact that we are incorporated will have no effect on average Joe Alfan. If we're talking about operating costs in the thousands to make ALFA a better, more enjoyable place, then I think we absolutely need to have some legal protection for those bearing the responsibilities. It's fine and dandy to say we trust each other now, but what happens when there is a serious dispute?

Put another way, I'm simply not willing to put my own personal assets on the line for this hobby. And if you think the litigation threat is mere fantasy, you're oblivious to some of the things that have transpired in the not so distant past.

p.s. As to the vote, if we're doing this to support centralization of resources, then my vote is a DEFINITELY.

psycho_leo · Post by **psycho_leo** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:48 pm

If we have any inttention of doing things teh way Zic is proposing then yes. That's the way to go in order to protect an investment made for ALFA.
I'd hate to see anyone quiting in a huff and keeping a box bought with donated money. I'd love to believe that this would never happen, but last I checked we're all humans and I lost the right to be this naive a long time ago.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:17 pm

Mik, do you have a rough estimate on timeframe and cost ?

Spider Jones · Post by **Spider Jones** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:17 pm

Mikayla wrote:From my perspective, IF we decide to go with a central super-server(s) via donations, then we should incorporate. But, if we DON'T go forward with the central super-server idea, then we do not need to incorporate.

That's basically how I feel about the matter. So, I'm withholding my vote until I've a reason to vote one way or the other.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:26 pm

Spider Jones wrote:
Mikayla wrote:From my perspective, IF we decide to go with a central super-server(s) via donations, then we should incorporate. But, if we DON'T go forward with the central super-server idea, then we do not need to incorporate.
That's basically how I feel about the matter. So, I'm withholding my vote until I've a reason to vote one way or the other.

I understand that. What I think is important to point out though, is what alternatives do we have ?

If we dont do this, basically, alot of people have to buy new fairly high end computers with atleast 3gb ram in them. What if the bandwith requirements turn out to be such that no basic homelink is goung to cut it ?

It does feel at a bit like we have started developing alot of modules and scripting work without paying enough attention to the infrastructure that is going to be needed down the line until now.

I would like to know what the members who are against donations, and against incorporating think is the best option.

Either way we do this, we the cost is apporximately the same, and the equipment baught to do this, will loose most of its monetary value once it is done doing its job. Since it cannot be used for any other purpose than hosting NWN2, then i think the argument that the equipment will he "theirs" really isnt that good.

Sure we solve the problem of someone running off with all the hardware we use to host modules, but is that worth more than the alternative ?

Looking at the Hosters needed thread I dont see a single server ready to host so far. Do we really have 7 people who are ready to shell out $1000 right now ? Do these 7 people have the means of hosting these servers ?

This is not completely on topic for this thread, but i see no reason to start yet another thread to discuss essentially the same thing.

To put it differently: What did you all have in mind before i came along and started these threads ?

indio · Post by **indio** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:55 pm

Well, there are a few assumptions again in there that are perhaps flawed somewhat.

alot of people have to buy new fairly high end computers with atleast 3gb ram in them. What if the bandwith requirements turn out to be such that no basic homelink is goung to cut it ?

Eh? You've been praised for your hosting skills of the vault, but they don't seem to be translating to servers, because that aove statement is potentially going to scare people away. A very low end CPU will host NWN2server. Athlon XPs, 754's, 939's, AM2's, core2duo's, and any P4 (and we've basically covered CPU's that every ALFAn would have) will all serve, some better than others, but again I ask you, what hosting experience do you actually have?

2GB's or RAM has consistently shown to be ample, even with mods of 3GB and larger. Your own test demonstrated a significantly smaller memory footprint than module size. 1GB of RAM is also shown to be fine in most cases. Memory is proving to be a much lesser concern than CPU, with RAM usage remaining stable even after several hours of hosting.

CPU usage spikes when spellcasting is happening and then maxes out when mob pathfinding kicks in. If mobs chase a PC and gets blocked, you'll have 100% CPU usage which will then kill the server. Now Obsidian are fixing the spellcaster problems by caching it (somehow). But the pathfinding may not be fixed soon, or for ages.

Either way we do this, we the cost is apporximately the same, and the equipment baught to do this, will loose most of its monetary value once it is done doing its job. Since it cannot be used for any other purpose than hosting NWN2, then i think the argument that the equipment will he "theirs" really isnt that good.

The cost is clearly different, as AL was trying to point out. As for your second assumption, I find it extraordinary you don't see merit in that argument. It reeks of business-mindedness.

The Hosters-Needed thread I'm pretty sure failed to get any of the builder hosters who are planning on hosting their own work to post. Could be wrong.

Do we really have 7 people who are ready to shell out $1000 right now ? Do these 7 people have the means of hosting these servers ?

That's just a bizarre way of looking at this argument.

Now I'm of the opinion that you're rushing this like a bull at a gate. Your heart is in the right place, but you're running the risk of scaring people that if we don't do this $7000 scheme, nothing is going to happen. You've done next to no real research on it, you've not contacted people who've been preparing modules and hosting for the last 4 months and more, and it's almost serving the purpose of being counter-productive. And with stuff like this:

It does feel at a bit like we have started developing alot of modules and scripting work without paying enough attention to the infrastructure that is going to be needed down the line until now.

...it's starting to get offensive.

danielmn · Post by **danielmn** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:56 pm

Witnessing how....childish..some members can be, about running off over something or another, personally if we are going to do this right, pull our resources, and have a central station, I am all for it. And I'll put my money where my mouth is. If we have seven different hosts...I'd be less inclined to donate, unless it was to someone in this community I truly respect.

Daniel.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:58 pm

The fee for filing Articles of Incorporation in California for a corporation that has no shares of stock (which we would not) is $30. Its a very simple form. To give an example, a friend of mine paid a specialist to this for his for-profit company, it cost him a couple hundred dollars, and the corporation was formed, seal obtained, business licenses obtained (which we don't need) etc. and it was all done within a week. For us, doing a non-profit, I suspect it could be done relatively quickly and painlessly if we decide to go that route.

Setting ALFA up as a non-profit corporation is not a difficult thing to do - the difficulty is in the added level of responsibility the directors (previously the Admin) will have to the membership. This is commensurate with their position as fiduciaries to the membership (that is to say, because they are responsible for other people's money, they have to be more responsible than ALFA's current Admin have to be). It means regular meetings (at least once every two months, but better if monthly) and it means keeping minutes, having an annual membership meeting, etc. So, getting us up and running as a corporation is easy - keeping us running is the more difficult task. You have to find good board members - people intelligent enough to understand their duties, responsible enough to live up to their obligations and dedicated enough to serve out their terms.

Anyway, I have books on how to set up non-profits at home which I do not have access to here, so I can get more precise information later.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:14 pm

Indio,

The main issue about nwn2 is the memory requirements of outdoor areas. It is mindboggling that you dont seem to have noticed this when you say memory is less important than processingpower. Each module, if they are going to resemble anything even remotely close to a PW in standard, has to be able to use the maximum 2GB ram. That means atleast 3GB ram is needed to host a good module.

I out right refuse to let the hosting situation with NWN2 come anywhere close to the horrible mess that has been hosting in ALFA in the past. If that is a problem for you Indio, i suggest you start a recall right now,- im simply not going to let it fly.

I am getting to a point where I am considering leaving you out of these discussions, since you obviously have no idea how to handle them. One more post like that, and you will be denied access.

Veilan · Post by **Veilan** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:38 pm

Agreements should be made while we can say we trust and agree with each other. Notions of trust and mutual consent, however, may change, inked contracts don't.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:39 pm

Mik,

So, what you're saying is that, getting it up and running and official shouldnt take too much time ?

What about the future admins ? It appears they would have to be american citizens if we decided to do this ?

Do we know of any other PWs that have done this ?
Do we know of any other PWs that have done donations without doing this ?

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:48 pm

I do not think that there is a citizenship requirement for the Board of Directors. I could be wrong, but I think citizens of other countries can sit on the board - the San Francisco Pride board, of which I am President, has a British citizen on it (she is trying to nationalize, but has not been able to yet so far as I know).

As for future Admin, they would be selected by the process laid out in the Bylaws. Let me give an example:

The law requires that Directors be re-elected on either a 1 year, 2 year or 3 year basis. The default is 1 year. This is usually done at the "Annual Meeting." For a membership organization, which ALFA would be, we would have an annual membership meeting at which folks would be elected to the Board of Directors.

Now, who would fill what role (ie President, etc.) can be decided in a number of ways - on the boards of which I have been a part, the board itself, once elected by the members, then decides who amongst its own shall be President, Secretary, etc. So, folks run for a seat on the board, they don't run for a specific office. Then, after the membership elects the board, the board decides who will hold what position.

Thats one way to do it - another way would be to combine board election and officer elections and have people stand for election to specific posts. I think this is not necessary - I think its simpler to elect a board, then let the board sort out who-is-who, but thats not the only way as I have said.

The nice thing about this is that it is a regular, community-driven process grounded in the law. Where we have a bit of a problem is that we are a 'virtual community' and not really capable of getting together in real life. My suggestion on that point is to hold virtual meetings of both the board and the membership. Board meetings can be held on any hosted server, while general membership meetings would have to be hosted somewhere that can handle a lot of people - my suggestion is Second Life - Second Life is FREE, and it would cost very little for an incorporated ALFA to rent enough land to put a "townhall" up where we could have "in-person" virtual meetings, like the general membership meeting.

Just some thoughts.

zicada · Post by **zicada** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:59 pm

What happens if people are unhappy with the current board that is elected for a year ? What are their options ?

How does all of this work internationally ? We are after all multinational community after all. Lets say I do something that is illegal in the US, but legal where I live for example.

Obviously, by going this route, we could most likely use some form of advertising to pay for montly hosting cost,- wich would be a good price to pay for adding a "hosted by" banner to the website.

The organization aspect of this also sounds rather interesting to me. Somehow it could turn out to be a better approach than we have currently.

Im still a bit concerned that we might be going a bit overboard by doing this though,- there are apparently lots of things to consider here.