Your opinion on ALFA's current wealth levels

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My personal, FIRST-HAND impression of the wealth levels in ALFA is that...

Poll ended at Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:36 pm

Players are generally too wealthy.
36
31%
The player wealth seems just fine to me.
52
44%
The wealth level needs to be raised.
30
25%
 
Total votes: 118

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darrenhfx
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Post by darrenhfx »

AcadiusLost wrote: I'd also like to say that the logs of the 2.x weapon test server are likely a skewed sampling of ALFA's population. By and large, the only PCs who had problems with the 3.0 conversion were ones with custom-model weapons. So, what you basically saw were all the wealthiest / most custom gear / most treasure-laden PCs, logging into the server to get their swag adjusted.
A very good point.

I voted for less wealth, but if proper standards are in place before ALFA2 goes live, we should be fine. Maybe a different take on this is that people should be able to rp their level of legimately earned wealth, whatever that may entail for their PC. Perhaps the new game will feature ways of doing that with greater facility.
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idoru
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Post by idoru »

It's a bit ludicrous to discuss the "wealth level" of ALFA as one net variable. We have some PCs that have lived through the loosening of wealth and loot controls that supposedly happened at some time in the past, obviously as they get most of their swag before the reigns were tightened up, they are going to have a lot more than PCs who have made their levels in a sanitized, near-zero gain environment.
There are difficulties with talking about net wealth, that's true. But it's also necessary to do so for us to be able to make any kind of assessment of where our campaign is headed. There is no realistic alternative way of assessing wealth, that I know of.

As for PCs from before the reigns were supposedly tightened up, well.. we have the opposite situation. The oldest PCs in ALFA lived through times when the loot was more tightly regulated. Things have loosened up, and haven't really tightened since. So this is not really a good explanation in our current situation.
Even from server to server, things will very widely, even discounting DM to DM variations in preferances for monetary/tangible rewards. I would say it is hard for PCs made in the last year or so to get by, paying for caravan rides or inn rooms, at least on some servers. I would also say the controls in place that make life hard for those PCs were likely designed with the wealthiest PCs in mind, and have had little affect on them.

Do I think there are PCs with dispropotionately large piles of gold and unbalancing equipment? Certainly- and this is one factor that makes such players difficult to DM for in my experience, as one is hesitant to head reward on reward, and they are often able to breeze through encounters that were meant to be significant/meaningful. Do I think making day-to-day life and necessities in game more expensive will help? I don't see how it would, just disproportionately hurts those players who wonder what all the fuss is about.
I agree. But you seem to be debating points raised in my "money sinks" thread now. Can we try to keep these two debates separate if possible?
I'd also like to say that the logs of the 2.x weapon test server are likely a skewed sampling of ALFA's population. By and large, the only PCs who had problems with the 3.0 conversion were ones with custom-model weapons. So, what you basically saw were all the wealthiest / most custom gear / most treasure-laden PCs, logging into the server to get their swag adjusted.
Custom-model weapons are not necessarily magical or uber. Many servers sell custom-looking standard weapons. It's true though that the 2.x test logs are skewered towards more active, and probably more loot-heavy players.

But let me emphasise that as it stands, it is the only sample we have that even resembles ALFA's entire population. It has shortcomings, and no one is claiming that it paints a completely representative image of ALFA players... But they do give a bit of insight into what kind of figures we're dealing with. There's a substantial amount of people who log in with very little gold. There's a grey bunch in the middle. And there's a bunch of people who are insanely wealthy.

It's dangerous to try to generalise too much from such a flawed sample, but once again: since it is the only sample we have, it will be used.

I like the input so far. Keep it coming!
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Vendrin
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Post by Vendrin »

I put it's fine as it is now, though I agree far to many low levels are below their wealth guideline.
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Amar
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Post by Amar »

a 3rd is voting to have wealth lowered as they are low wealth and see other with high wealth and get jealous.

a 3rd is high wealth and obviously being happy they say raise wealth so the low wealth players increase their wealth and stop wanting wealth lowered which would in effect nerf them.
speak for yourself. I voted option three because ive had one PC with a networth over 1k. And half of that she wasnt allowed to keep.

and i dont think ive ever had more than 500 gold on me.
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LBaeldeth
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Post by LBaeldeth »

With the exception of one windfall (1,000gp) that happened to one PC - and it wasn't easy to get, let me tell you - my characters have always been destitute.

Technically I was only supposed to get 350gp of that, but I bamboozled the other two into thinking the reward was not given. *grins*

EDIT: And I voted to raise wealth, because I want some spending money!
Last edited by LBaeldeth on Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cynon
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Post by Cynon »

I'm thinking that a 3rd of ALFA is happy and thinks best to leave things alone.

a 3rd is voting to have wealth lowered as they are low wealth and see other with high wealth and get jealous.

a 3rd is high wealth and obviously being happy they say raise wealth so the low wealth players increase their wealth and stop wanting wealth lowered which would in effect nerf them.

Nobody wants to have their own wealth lowered but nobody minds seeing 'others' haveing their wealth lowered. Human beings a selfish and cold breed.
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Yep probably true though amar. of those 3rds there are probably all sorts voting for all differnt reasons but it is clear people are shouting on average quite evenly. Which leaves it as i said later, this is an issue but moving one way or the other would simply piss off a 2/3rds of alfa.

Probably best to just have DM's handing out loot in a more guideline guided way and perhaps focus on low wealth players also for plots designed to earn a bit of gold.

If a player is poor dish it out, if they are rich make life pricey, let local thieves guild know. Let the poor PC's know aswell :twisted:
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Post by wvincenti »

fade wrote:Wealth isnt an overall problem except for a few PCs that seem to have around double what everyone else is, but as long as they got it legit having a few rich people around doesn't bother me a bit.
Fade said it quite nicely.

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Post by Zekal »

If Faerun was real, what would stop every second adventurer from becoming extremely rich?
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LBaeldeth
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Post by LBaeldeth »

Every other adventurer, who is busy stealing from every second adventurer.

Also werewolves.
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rushxxi
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Post by rushxxi »

The easy solution is to make more in-game commerce.
I've been pushing this. It's more fun than loot.
Rich PCs can hire poor PCs. Wealth drains and shifts to needy. Bodyguards, trap-setters, messengers, guides - sky's the limit.
Rich PCs can donate to their chosen temples. Wealth drains and buys story.
Rich PCs can buy property and buildings. This drains PC wealth and buys prestige.
Rich PCs can (depending on server) buy Title. Wealth traded for prestige/story again.
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darrenhfx
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Post by darrenhfx »

Those are all great ideas providing that people are actually interested in moving their PCs in less combat-centric plot directions.

The focus of ALFA seems to be heavily skewed towards finding ways of surviving combat in order to "advance". Money will always be directed in this way preferentailly unless other styles of game-play are supported either by player or DM interest.

My question is, are people really all that interested in having these sorts of non-martial prestige options?
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Post by Gebb »

I'm not sure I see what the big deal is....

Doesn't PnP D&D give approximate wealth owned by creatures, individuals, and groups?

Why doesn't ALFA just follow the Canon guidelines?

And why in the world would DMs activly try to nerf PCs who succeed in beating the average through good (or lucky) play? Isn't that part of their reward? Are we that socialist?
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Post by ThinkTank »

LBaeldeth wrote:Every other adventurer, who is busy stealing from every second adventurer.
Damn right, its a 'competitive' market :lol:
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Mulu
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Post by Mulu »

A lot of it goes to playstyles and rp too. I burned my PC's first grand on dresses, most of which she didn't keep. It was IC for her at the time. Now she's a little more survivalistic, having had a lot of acquaintances die and having almost died herself a few times, so she's holding on to her money that she doesn't spend on healing potions.

You need to remember that wealth is another rp opportunity, both having it and not having it. I can think of lots of ways that being poor can enhance rp, and lots of ways that being rich can enhance rp. I'm not a big fan of guidelines for PC's, though obviously DM guidelines for balance purposes make sense. Still, I think the game world is more interesting and has richer rp opportunities with class and wealth differences among PC's, even stark ones. So long as it's IC.
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idoru
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Post by idoru »

One of the main advantages of having clear, unambiguous wealth- and XP-giving guidelines for DMs is that it shifts the responsibility from the player to the DM. If a player gets wealthy it isn't fundamentally his own fault (unless he has used an exploit or farmed). Most wealth and XP in ALFA is handed out by DMs.

Wealth will vary in a community this large. It makes sense for a greedy rogue to get rich a lot faster than an altruistic paladin. OOC, some people practically live on the servers, while others are more casual players. Naturally more active players will get richer.

Variations in wealth for the reasons mentioned above are fine. But variations are not fine if they are due to the fact that DMs award loot very differently. Players should not suffer or benefit unfairly because they happen to play with a DM who is overly cheap/generous.

In other words, it's not a matter of jealousy or socialism. I certainly don't believe that all players of a given level should have about the same wealth. But the gigantic variations we're seeing now are in my opinion largely due to variations in DMing style, not due to variations in playing style. The fact that many of the wealthiest players are also known for their excellent roleplaying supports this.

Note that I'm not trying to blame the DMs here. The current wealth guidelines are insanely complicated and long-winded. You shouldn't have to be familiar with law and advanced maths just to be able to hand out loot to your players.

The current situation can be blamed on a failure by admin (collectively) to implement and enforce clear, unambiguous XP- and wealth-giving rules. We're going to fix this. Stay tuned...
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