Tieflings

[FanaticusIncendi]

Geez just let these races in already. Personally i think they're ridiculous but as Vendrin says if people want to play them, let them play them. And if the player is being stupid, remove them. Or just ignore them until they fade away from lack of attention. *shrugs*

Now, i've loved elves ever since I first read Tolkien many many years ago. I don't play them because I don't feel it's possible to do them justice in the RP or through the system we have. IMO elves are a more alien race than tieflings, and in 4 years of playing and DMing here I have never once watched someone RP an elf and said to myself "WOW that person sure does embody what (IMO) it is to be an elf!" So if there is little significant difference between the RP of an elf and a human, I doubt it will be much worse with Tieflings.

[Souvarine]

Well Jaydemoon, if that's the biggest reason not to include them, it never existed...

Doesn't matter if that's what you (or even I) think.

It matters that that is what the current builders/DMs overall think. Don't convince me, convince them. Good luck, the prior 30+ pages of multiple threads hasn't convinced them yet. An entire forum temporarily created for the issue didn't convince them. Further, by this point, they probably aren't even monitoring this thread.

Well what do you know? maybe they do, maybe the amount of posting that goes on here after all what you mentionned took place...does reflect that a proportion of people still care about it, wether in or out the string-pulling circles. I am sure some people refrain because they don't want to be affiliated with those in this thread, gave hope after saying their opinion, but care just as much. Perhaps some are even regretting their own vote back then. We don't know, but we can still fight for it.

If everyone accepted bad decisions and lowered their heads at the first trolling post reply, things would just never change.

Call me deluded but even after all these years i believe that players may help to change something in alfa.

[indio]

And this is the kind of stuff is why ALFA has no live NWN2 servers and very few people still around to play on them.

Jesus dude, no it's not. I barely see anyone in these threads who are builders (no offense to the people in these threads, and especially Joos, probably the best rper I've seen in action).

We don't have many builders. We never will, and we never have. Blame something other than threads like this for ALFA not having a live NWN2 server.

Now if everyone who took part in these conversations like these were builders, then you could blame threads like these. So blame Burt and get real like I do, and stop making people feel bad, or pretending that ALFA doesn't have 3 or 4 servers which are well on the way to maiking it live.

[JaydeMoon]

Well what do you know? maybe they do, maybe the amount of posting that goes on here after all what you mentionned took place...does reflect that a proportion of people still care about it, wether in or out the string-pulling circles. I am sure some people refrain because they don't want to be affiliated with those in this thread, gave hope after saying their opinion, but care just as much. Perhaps some are even regretting their own vote back then. We don't know, but we can still fight for it.

If everyone accepted bad decisions and lowered their heads at the first trolling post reply, things would just never change.

Call me deluded but even after all these years i believe that players may help to change something in alfa.

What do I know? What do I know?!?

I know that 2+2 equals 4, dammit. What do you know?!?

Heh.

Hey, I'm not sayin don't fight for it. As I said before, squeaky wheel gets the grease. I'm just saying that after 30+ pages of threads etc that it's plain to see that the ones you need to convince are hard to convince.

Therefore, good luck. My point still stands. You and I can talk and talk and talk and talk... but if we don't move the movers and shake the shakers, it ain't happenin, my friend.

[Magonushi]

Therefore, good luck. My point still stands. You and I can talk and talk and talk and talk... but if we don't move the movers and shake the shakers, it ain't happenin, my friend.

Translation: If ALFA's rules don't sit well with you, move to another community.

[Rotku]

Therefore, good luck. My point still stands. You and I can talk and talk and talk and talk... but if we don't move the movers and shake the shakers, it ain't happenin, my friend.

Translation: If ALFA's rules don't sit well with you, move to another community.

Nonsense. ALFA rules don't sit well with you, you do something about it instead of bitching and whinning.

If you're that motivated about the issue, put together a list of compelling arguments for it, rebuttle against the arguments against, and approch Wynna or Mikayla and try and get a Player (or Admin) vote on the issue.

You're not winning any opinions over by posting here. Anyone who cares about the issue has already seen these same arguments posted 100 times already.

[Vendrin]

Therefore, good luck. My point still stands. You and I can talk and talk and talk and talk... but if we don't move the movers and shake the shakers, it ain't happenin, my friend.

Translation: If ALFA's rules don't sit well with you, move to another community.

Indio, this is my point. We make so many asinine rules like this one that we lose people. The majority of people are not builders, but some are. And those builders go on to do other stuff instead of staying with ALFA.

[indio]

As much as I don't enjoy disagreeing with you Vendrin, ALFA works. The fact that we're still here, that we've got a ton of stuff going on, that we've been doing it for years and show no sign of stopping, faltering or imploding, despite all our problems, despite our half-assed democratic process, despite our admin, despite everything else that gets used in debates like these in threads like these, is quite enough for me to discount arguments of this nature as either silly, misinformed, resentful or just plain wrong.

[darrenhfx]

I believe that this issue will resurface more meaningfully once we get a few servers up and going. From an H/DM POV, planetouched will be a juggling act unless there is a DM who is fully dedicated to working with the races, or unless the server is geared to handle a playerbase that is primarily evil alignment (Moonsea, par example).

On the other end of the spectrum, Cold Lands would not likely work very well for tieflings as there is a magical barrier preventing demons from entering the Bloodstone Pass (not sure what would happen to those of demonic heritage). Although there are forces who operate outside the Vale who would very likely welcome a tiefling in their ranks.

I don't doubt that most players who chose to play tieflings would rp them well, this issue to me is more finding a sympathetic server and suitable DM resources, a pursuit which may be a bit premature at this time.

my .02

[Mulu]

Dude, seriously. Seriously, dude. Dude. Seriously.

In my defense, I was responding to a post by Zelk, who once seriously claimed chickens were mortal combat warriors.

[psycho_leo]

I don't doubt that most players who chose to play tieflings would rp them well, this issue to me is more finding a sympathetic server and suitable DM resources, a pursuit which may be a bit premature at this time.

That is absolutely true. On the other hand it can be said for other non controversial races. Ever tried playing an elf in sembia? Unless you can get a DM willing to run an elven faction, or at least an elf-friendly faction you can't pull it off (unless you're one of those that like RP by yourself for hours and hours). Same could be said for the late DD server and half-orcs or drow in SD.

[Souvarine]

Anyone who cares about the issue has already seen these same arguments posted 100 times already.

That's both right and wrong, because people who will join in the future (there is still hope to get new members right?) might care about it, and might wonder on how the decision have been made...

Arguments?

1. Plane touched races are not necessarily more fun, or more powerful than current race selection. These are all of equal value from a creative point of view. But they are an additional option for every current and future member, no matter their stance on the issue. This is the main reason why I so desire them to be included.

2. There is no additional work needed from the builders’ part, unlike the real script challenge that subraces were in early nwn1. Planetouched are very close to humans, they are not half-breeds (far from it, actually). Aasimar will most likely meld very well in the traditional heroic setting of most servers, while Tieflings would simply use the content in place for evil pcs. Selecting a fitting server and finding a dm interested in your concept is part of the deal when you play any character.

3. Dms are not forced to do anything more for the players using planetouched characters than they currently do for anyone else, simply because those that do not want to interact with planetouched won’t have to. The same thing is going on for drows on the surface, and just as the argument above, it’s part of the difficulty in playing these characters.

4. Players or dms who dislike planetouched characters could, at a point or another, encounter one or have one suddenly coming in their server. The same can be said for any other race depending on the tastes of each player and dm. There is no complete solution to this, and it will happen with or without planetouched characters. On the other hand, planetouched are part of the forgotten realms, and no one is required to interact with any other should they not want to (communications will solve this). If we excluded races on the basis of which everyone liked or not, then there would be none left to play and alfa would be a single player campaign.

5. Players were not considered in the decision-making process. This is the single mistake that was done in the whole affair. The decision to accept a 50+1 result was made by the admin and they are supposed to make those hard decision, but my argument is that we have no idea how the 15/16 poll reflect the direction this community wants to go, and polling the players should have been the logical reaction. The value of a player poll is significantly greater than a restricted poll concerning this issue, since we are talking about a player option that is available at character creation. The same issue might happen if gnomes are ever excluded.

6. ALFA is a mature community. Players rolling planetouched characters are assumed to know what they are doing, just like we assume that of every player rolling any other race/class in ALFA. The whole community should not be restricted by the potentially immature few who might get or have gone through the application process. These should be resolved in a case by case basis, and the race which they pick has nothing to do with their behavior.

[coach]

On the other end of the spectrum, Cold Lands would not likely work very well for tieflings as there is a magical barrier preventing demons from entering the Bloodstone Pass (not sure what would happen to those of demonic heritage). Although there are forces who operate outside the Vale who would very likely welcome a tiefling in their ranks.

as far as Cold Lands, demon-blooded would be out as a playable race

either it'd be a physical barrier that they could not pass into or an auto-banishment, canon does not say which

Bahamut created the artifact called the Tree-Gem that originated from the destruction of the Wand of Orcus – once planted at Gareth’s coronation, it grew into a beautiful white tree which forever bans those of demon blood from the Bloodstone Lands as long as the country and its rulers align with the cause of good................ (and another reference stating) wards against creatures of the Abyss from walking on the land of teh Bloodstone Lands

but there are buried demoncysts that contain demons banished by the Raumathari long before the Tree-gem was planted, and it is mentioned that these demons are sought by thralls of Eltab so they can escape, so i guess death is not an effect of this "ban", probably just an intense desire to leave the area ... or maybe the demons in the demoncysts have already been banished ... who knows

Cult of Eltab seek out demons trapped in demoncysts to release them

[Veilan]

Souv, I would like to note that you offer one positive argument (more variety, which I think was positively acknowledged as pro-argument in the debate), while the rest are actually attempts at mitigating counter-arguments.

Now, when I DMed this was a non-issue, so my experience is limited, as I only had to deal with more or less standard races.
I do believe the majority of DMs considered it to be more work and burden though (and I can understand why, simply ignoring does not work and causes all other sorts of problems of immersion breaking and weird interaction).

You say they don't, on what basis of experience do you make this assumption? I'm actually really curious - if you have a well-founded explanation here, that would be great. But, please understand my skepticism as to my knowledge, you haven't DMed nor built for "controversial" races and locales in ALFA and kind of ruled out my suggestion of trying to convince people through means of DMing plots featuring the races you pine for.

Also, you are wrong in assuming that players were not considered in this; in fact, I believe that is a fiercely polemical and non-constructive exaggeration.

First of all, most DMs are also players. Secondly, there clearly was a plan in place to poll players should DMs chose to support them as player races. Both constituencies would have had to approve for this to be implemented - are you suggesting player wishes should overrule DM wishes on this? That's certainly a valid opinion to hold, but "players cannot force DMs to allow stuff they want" is a far, far cry from claiming they were not considered.

[psycho_leo]

as far as Cold Lands, demon-blooded would be out as a playable race

either it'd be a physical barrier that they could not pass into or an auto-banishment, canon does not say which

Banishment doesn't work on planetouched. So it's gotta be something else.