Do warlocks fit into the Forgotten Realms?

[Ronan]

Thats not trying to code-out PGing, thats just dumb. "Coding out PGing" is not done by increasing the game's difficulty.

This is getting just a tad tiring. You're not reading my posts correctly. I stated that their efforts to code out PGing had the 'end result' of making it too easy to die. It wasn't their intention to do this, but it was not realized that by imposing various restrictions, they simply made it harder for the 'average' character concept to survive.

Exactly. It was a dumb way to try and remove PGing. I think we are in agreement there. Imposing "various restrictions" as you said impacts too many states at once - states of non-PGed builds as well as PGed ones.

The first step in this is pretty obvious: Remove the outliners. Fix the horribly gimped abilities and remove the stupidly powerful ones. 3.5 itself is pretty balanced, so in most all circumstances this takes the form of shifting things back to 3.5 rules.

I don't see this as coding to counter PGing.

Well, I primarly do it to counter PGing. I like bringing things closer to the original game, but the efforts towards this which also remove PGed states from the state-space are far preferable and given higher priority.

In my experience, and that of most others i've spoken to, enforcement has little to do with 'burnout'. What has more to do with burnout is having DMs in the team that don't DM, causing those that do DM, a feeling of disproportionate responsibility. Inevitably, those that do DM take it upon themselves to try and compensate for those who take up the DM mantle, but do not participate in the DMing process. By incorrectly viewing the DMing status as a 'job,' a responsibility to the community... as opposed to merely a means to obtain some entertainment whilst providing entertainment for others.

The two primary causes of burnout which I have seen are DMs being overworked, and DMs faced with enforcing things on players they don't like, feel are PGers, or other such OOC policing. I've never heard of a DM burn out because he was pissed at inactive DMs, after all, inactive DMs can always just remove themselves from the DM-team and nothing will change. It would be nice if innactive DMs were active, yes, but thats just a symptom of existing DMs being overworked, IMO. DMs having to spend time policing (and believe me, this can take a LOT of time in some cases) adds to work immensly.

Simply stated, you can't code out PGing. Efforts to do so invariably penalize roleplayers.

We try to prune specific states from the state-space of all possible character combinations in an effort to get them closer to being equal. Yes there will always be outliners, but more PGed states we can cut out or adjust the better things are for everyone. Some of these adjustments may effect non-PGed states, and some not. We try to aim for the later.

As for me not reading your post very well, your correct. Its more than a bit of a dead-horse by now, so I'm more inclined to skim.

[Fionn]

Blenderhead - agreed, but that's not limited to PGing, nor ALFA. Most deceptive people are horrible about projecting their actions onto their world view.

NES - sorry, maybe I'm not 1337 enough, but I can't RP in the morgue ;)

[NESchampion]

NES - sorry, maybe I'm not 1337 enough, but I can't RP in the morgue

Harder to survive doesn't mean impossible; as I said, I've played weak characters (hell, I play a Sorcerer right now, not exactly the tough guy) on many servers and in many environments, and frankly, having to be careful is no detriment to RP. Even the best mix maxing PG build can be slain by a lucky crit.

But to say that being weak makes RP harder is the same as saying being strong makes RP easier; in which case, why not encourage powergaming. Afterall, then you'd be 1337 enough to RP while alive, right?

[Stormseeker]

Well just thought i would point out that after playing around with a warlock npc (17thlvl) that without a meat shield in front of him he is toast. Sure he can smack out spells every round..but they dont compare to other spell casters of the same level...not even close...and they dont have the buff spells to compensate.
A rogue half their level could pawn them with a lot of points in use magic device and a couple 100 gold spent on scrolls.
From a pure number cruncher perspective a rogue/sorc or rogue/wiz is a better choice.(use of int for skills or use of chr for skills.)
So i dont think you have to worry about the rogue/warlock...after all there are better choices if you want to be a powergamer.

Myself i wont play one of those multi's mentioned above...now maybe a warlock/fighter or warlock/cleric......*grins*

[fade]

A big 'lol' at people considering that warlocks are more powerful enough to be fearful of them over a druid/cleric/wizard/sorc. More variety, better buffs(which are the traditional ALFA powerhouse), and for the most part more damage. Also persistant spell and divine metamagic FTW, though I'm pretty sure that at least will never be including in ALFA or NWN2.

Warlocks are kinda cool though and I'd think I'd have to play one at least once.

[White Warlock]

It is as i suspected, thanks Storm.

But to say that being weak makes RP harder is the same as saying being strong makes RP easier; in which case, why not encourage powergaming. Afterall, then you'd be 1337 enough to RP while alive, right?

Umm, it's not about being weak or being strong that influences RP, it's about staying alive regardless of the character build that 'encourages' PG builds. If i build a character based on a character concept, and didn't MIN/MAX it, but then every time i party with a group (and everyone else 'is' MIN/MAXing their character build)... my character ends up being the one whose arse is in the sling, and it pretty much kills my 'intended' character concept.

I've noted in the past, and on other PWs, that if you design your character based on RP motivations (as opposed to PG motivations), you end up not being able to roleplay your intended bio. Instead, you end up having to roleplay a friggin' wimp. And the reason for this is because the vast majority of other players put an inordinate amount of time number crunching (PGing) and then come up with a character concept that 'rationalizes' their numbers.

Frankly, i don't think that's cool, but i also know I cannot change those things in a PW (I can only do so in a closed campaign that i self-manage)... so i'll be honest and say that in ALFA, i PG a bit when it comes to character development because i really don't have much choice. I don't want to roleplay a wimp, unless it 'really' is in the character bio, and the only way to reasonably avoid falling into that category... is to number crunch the character concept.

So yes, PGing in any form can unduly influence roleplay. Unfortunately, it's a variable we cannot reasonably code out... precisely because it's a variable.

Thanks for reading, enjoy your game.

[Mord]

NES - sorry, maybe I'm not 1337 enough, but I can't RP in the morgue

Harder to survive doesn't mean impossible; as I said, I've played weak characters (hell, I play a Sorcerer right now, not exactly the tough guy) on many servers and in many environments, and frankly, having to be careful is no detriment to RP. Even the best mix maxing PG build can be slain by a lucky crit.

But to say that being weak makes RP harder is the same as saying being strong makes RP easier; in which case, why not encourage powergaming. Afterall, then you'd be 1337 enough to RP while alive, right?

My longest living character was a 10 Con, 10 Dex wizard, at the time when he died (because of me being a moron and travelling alone at night and encountering a lvl 11 drow necromancer who was killing chickens with cloudkill) he was level 8 and had 27 hp unbuffed, I didn't think it was too hard to survive with such a concept, you just have to play smart.

[Rumple C]

Mord said it good. Play smart.

[NESchampion]

NES - sorry, maybe I'm not 1337 enough, but I can't RP in the morgue

Harder to survive doesn't mean impossible; as I said, I've played weak characters (hell, I play a Sorcerer right now, not exactly the tough guy) on many servers and in many environments, and frankly, having to be careful is no detriment to RP. Even the best mix maxing PG build can be slain by a lucky crit.

But to say that being weak makes RP harder is the same as saying being strong makes RP easier; in which case, why not encourage powergaming. Afterall, then you'd be 1337 enough to RP while alive, right?

My longest living character was a 10 Con, 10 Dex wizard, at the time when he died (because of me being a moron and travelling alone at night and encountering a lvl 11 drow necromancer who was killing chickens with cloudkill) he was level 8 and had 27 hp unbuffed, I didn't think it was too hard to survive with such a concept, you just have to play smart.

Glad to see someone gets my point besides me.

[White Warlock]

Umm, he is talking about a wizard, whose greatest strengths are with indirect combat (int, etc). Put a 10 con and a 10 dex on a fighter, and try to roleplay that in ALFA, without compromising a 'hero' bio. Good luck.

A wizard that uses other characters, familiars, and summoned creatures for meat shields, can focus on offensive spells and not be encumbered by the need to deal with someone physically attacking them... thus having no need of high con or high dex. Mord, a fair question would be... what was your character's Int, Wis, and Cha?

Anyway, it's pretty much like this: If all the other character types are Rambos and Merlins, it really leaves little room for interesting yet otherwise just above normal character concepts. But, let's be fair. You can have a good character concept even if Min/Maxed. A roleplayer isn't hampered by such things, which is why many roleplayers opt to min/max a bit just to survive (and still be able to roleplay) in an otherwise inhospitable gameworld (gross PGers, on the other hand, would likely feel neutered should they be forced to play a character that is not Min/Maxed).

This next is something i covered a few hundred times in the past, but what's one more time, eh?

There is no 'win' in roleplay. Roleplay is for the purposes of obtaining memorable experiences, stories if you will. My greatest memories of RPG games have been that of the most intense roleplaying sessions, or the most intriguing dialogue associated with the surrounding events. It has 'never' been that of the building process for my ultra-powerful character stats, of gaining a level, or of attaining some uber artifact. In truth, i cannot recall how those events took place, only that they did.

What i remember are the silly little things, like the argument with the racist shop keeper, the debate my warlock had with a cleric and a druid over the origins of wild magic, tricking my venturing 'tank' partners into waiting it out while my character disappeared and started a civil war... so we didn't have to go into battle with as many villians as were initially before us (less 'kill' xp, but hey... safer for my character and a nice chunk of dm awarded xp).

And, in ALFA, one of the greater discussions was when my wild dwarf druid/barbarian (who took almost a year to reach level 3, btw) found a body being sold at the store. He bought it with the intent of feeding the starving wolves (a problem plaguing that server. Kind of annoying that the wolves would always attack my druid, but whatever). While he was heading there, with the body in tow, a religious dogooder zealot priest happened upon him, and an argument ensued about what should be done with the body.
This relatively long argument provided ample entertainment for me, i suspect a good time for the person playing the priest, and some side entertainment for everyone that came waltzing by to watch us argue about the moralities and practicalities of buying corpses, burial rituals, feeding wolves, and the sort.

Uber stats are useful for soloing, and for dealing with incidents ingame where a DM is not available. But a far scarier issue is that i've actually been denied participation in groups specifically because my characters were not min/maxed, and thus not useful to their style of play. In some of my character concepts, players were blunt enough to tell me they didn't want to travel with my character because he would too easily get killed. Since their characters were min/maxed, while mine were not, my character couldn't hold up the 'proportionate' end of the deal, as it were. In all honesty, my character could hold up his/her end of the deal, but the problem lay in the 'approach' to combat.

I agree, Mordekai, that smart play allows for non min/maxed character concepts to survive for extended periods of time. But, only if they have others who play in a similar fashion. Unfortunately, if the majority of a community min/maxes their characters, they're going to play the old fashioned tanking mission that doesn't require smart play.

I prefer smart play over bowling over enemies with superior stats/abilities, but in a PG dominated PW, that just isn't going to happen... unless you solo. And we all know what inevitably happens when you solo.

Okay, now that we've taken this thread completely off topic... are we at page 10 yet?

[Ronan]

All the more reason to cull the PG builds as much as you can without affecting non-PGed builds. To anyone who thinks this is impossible, I'll just point you towards NWN's healing and animal domains and leave it at that. I'm just a bit iffy on what to do about t-shield divine casters, everyone in ALFA2 will be taking an AC hit except for them, who are getting 1 more point of AC. Yeah they loose 2 AB, but for the ones who focus on casting thats not such a big deal.

With the number of PrCs in NWN2, a great deal more character concepts will be viable in combat. You'll still have to pay some attention to the numbers, of course, but I don't think thats necissarily a bad thing. It is still a game, after all, and people without knowledge of the system can always ask for help on how not to gimp their PC. Things that I try to "fix" are:

• Specific combinations of abilities/items/etc that produce higher-than-ordinary levels of power.
• Filling gaps in character concepts. In other words, adding things which will support more different types of characters with viable power levels.

[NESchampion]

Umm, he is talking about a wizard, whose greatest strengths are with indirect combat (int, etc). Put a 10 con and a 10 dex on a fighter, and try to roleplay that in ALFA, without compromising a 'hero' bio. Good luck.

I'm currently playing a Sorcerer with high strength. I could multiclass Fighter and be able to be a good Fighter at this point. Did it make it harder to RP by deviating from the norm and not going for a power build? No.

If you want to argue that the easiest characters to make survive are the best RPed, then you have to admit that powergaming would be a benefit to RP. I frankly disagree, as the survivability of a concept does not affect how easy or hard it is to RP, only to survive.

But a far scarier issue is that i've actually been denied participation in groups specifically because my characters were not min/maxed, and thus not useful to their style of play.

I'm currently playing a non-mix maxed character, and I've yet to come upon an adventuring party that turned me down for it; I chose a very strange design concept for my character, and yeah, it has had survival issues (no mage armor or other AC bonus spells, or summon creature at level 1 for instance, many casters would say that's suicidal; not to mention only a +2 for the spellcasting stat bonus at level 1). But that doesn't make it less enjoyable to RP. Stronger character designs are always out there, and wanting to remove multiclassing from the Warlock because it "could" be more powerful than other builds is not, in my opinion, sane.

What's being said is that because the Warlock is stronger, normal classes won't be able to RP; yet multiple people have said they have played weaker than normal classes and had a great time RPing. Ronan himself said he wants to remove the outliers of extreme power because they hurt RPing, but I disagree. There will always be characters stronger than yours, and it has never hurt my RP. Not once since NWN was released.

[White Warlock]

All the more reason to cull the PG builds as much as you can without affecting non-PGed builds.

Good luck on that pipe dream.

Things that I try to "fix" are:

• Specific combinations of abilities/items/etc that produce higher-than-ordinary levels of power.

Ahh, and what do you define as 'power?' You see, there are ways and means of using characters 'smartly' that allow them to be inordinately more powerful, and then there are character builds that allow them to be more 'tankish.' So, what do you define as 'power?'

Things that I try to "fix" are:

• Filling gaps in character concepts. In other words, adding things which will support more different types of characters with viable power levels.

This is a reasonable direction, but since i have no idea what 'things' entails, we're back to having faith in the scripting team's decision making process.

Okay, got some work to do, so i'll come back and participate in these types of silly discussions in a week or so. Later.

[Ronan]

Ronan himself said he wants to remove the outliers of extreme power because they hurt RPing...

No, I want to remove them because they are unbalanced. I really don't think they hurt RPing itself very often, they more cause OOC grief. Balance is important in any campaign, and its much harder in one spanning dozens of DMs. Some people may not care about balance, but most want to be roughly equal in power to other PCs who have been through the same things their PC has, and get rightly pissed when another PC has 5x the wealth of theirs just because his DM decided to give out more loot. Builds are little different from this.

Well, "remove" is a poor word. Unless the concepts are just silly (say, clerics of Tyr with healing/animal domains, or Svirf monks), I'd prefer to just adjust them down. We don't want to lessen the number of character concepts NWN2 supports, after all.

[Ronan]

Good luck on that pipe dream.

Huh? Healing domain? Animal domain? Knockdown mechanics? BW's bigby implementation? Flame weapon? BW's original improved invisibility? The list goes on, and on. How well do you know NWN, if you think altering those is a pipe dream? These aren't pipe-dreams, they are very fixable (read: fixed) and specific problems. If you don't read the description of some of those things and go "omfg twinked", then I don't know what to say. Maybe we should have left the "sap" feat in?

Ahh, and what do you define as 'power?' You see, there are ways and means of using characters 'smartly' that allow them to be inordinately more powerful, and then there are character builds that allow them to be more 'tankish.' So, what do you define as 'power?'

Typically being able to fill some niche or set of niches in a way that isn't totally overlapped by another build. But obviously thats not a question with a straightforward answer.

This is a reasonable direction, but since i have no idea what 'things' entails, we're back to having faith in the scripting team's decision making process.

The "scripting team" as you call it rarely decides these things (except in obvious circumstances, no I don't have time to justify every little tweak I do, but with NWN2 we may not need many). Its all done in Standards.

Okay, got some work to do, so i'll come back and participate in these types of silly discussions in a week or so. Later.

I wouldn't bother, standards has already discussed all this ad-nauseum, and they make the decisions.