Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
yes I had a while back proposed that we reach out on the WOTC forums and make posts about (1) how to join ALFA and (2) how to get and set up NWN2. There were even model posts drafted people could use.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
- maxcell
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
Castano wrote:yes I had a while back proposed that we reach out on the WOTC forums and make posts about (1) how to join ALFA and (2) how to get and set up NWN2. There were even model posts drafted people could use.
I did this. I was hoping others would sign up over there and do the same.
- CloudDancing
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
I post regularly on their Facebook page and in the comments sections of their articles if that is any help.
- Ithildur
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
I'm going to be a little blunt here.
We've seen a good deal of effort in the past year directed towards marketing/advertising through various means, including emailing old members, Facebook, reaching out to other communities besides NWN2, etc. We've even dropped the passwords on MS and BG.
I think some of that's worked. We've had new and old players come by and check things out.
Very few have stuck around.
Why? I think at least part of it is that we're not dealing with some things that folks in this thread and elsewhere (the Proposal forum) raised. Drumming up a lot of noise and advertising without substance to back it up so customers return and stay regular customers is not an effective strategy.
Sure, we have a pretty solid core of regulars who have managed to find something campaign-y to plug into regularly; those guys are going to be fairly happy no matter what (unless the campaigns stagnate or just don't fit the playstyle of the players, etc.). We also have about half dozen to dozen folks that are pretty good about logging in regularly and RPing no matter what, whether there's a DM or not, whether they have a regular organized schedule or not; whether they're in taverns or doing statics they log in regularly and find RP. They're also more likely to attract DMs even if they don't have a campaign thing set up.
These folks seem content with the product that we have, which is just that: ALFA works well when there's a campaing-y dynamic (which we've been especially reinforcing for the past year+) going on for those lucky enough to be part of a campaign that they enjoy. ALFA also works well enough if a regular group (could even be a group of 2) organize things (it might be as simple as logging in consistently at a set time) somewhat to the point they log in regularly and catch each other online.
There are a few folks who seem actually content long term without either of the above, to log in and catch other players or a DM once in a blue moon and RP with them, or log in and explore/do static quests etc if they're alone. Honestly, this is a very small number of folks; I would estimate 2 or 3. Then there's the rest (probably larger group) who have settled for something similar except they're NOT content.
So to break it down roughly (I'm sure there's folks that do not fit neatly into these categories; I hate categories like this but they can serve some purpose at times):
1. the lucky campaign-y guys happy to be getting regular DM sessions consistently
2. the dedicated/organized guys that log in to RP regularly, often with the same people and at the same times, no matter what
3. the 'happy to just be here' folks that seem content to simply log in and be able to RP a character in alfa, even if it's just doing a mail run 1x/week all alone.
4. the folks that are somewhere between 2 and 3, i.e not quite as regular/organized, but still better than 'log in for weekly mail run, log off'. These folks probably vary widely in their degree of satisfaction.
5. the unhappy group whose game looks similar to 3 (and it's not always as simple as 'why don't you just organize with others?' I realize) BUT would like more out of their game than the 'happy to just be here' folks.
Chances are, if a new player (or returning player after long absence) shows up, they're going to start out at 3 initially, though not always. Eventually however, odds are that they'll make an evaluation within a couple of weeks or so, and if they don't get out of the 3 (or 5) zone, they're probably going to leave.
I'd imagine for a lot of new folks, jumping from 3 to 1 requires a combination of luck and communication, perhaps some initiative, that the 'browsing customer' brought in by advertisement usually doesn't come laden with. The odds definitely are not helped by scattered timezones and players/DMs thinly stretched out on 4 servers, or even 2 open servers.
Jumping to #2 might be more feasible, if there were more type 2 players (i.e. Duncan's crew) actively looking for new folks to involve on all the servers. In reality, there aren't a ton of type 2 people around in alfa currently (even Duncan's crew seems to have disappeared again?). Again, the odds get much worse when things are spread out on multiple servers.
Moving to 4 is probably the most likely positive shift currently, though sliding all the way down to 5 is just as likely if not more so. Either way, 4 is far from an optimal experience to offer prospective new players, especially if they came expecting something more like 1 or 2 from the advertising.
We've been working on ways to promote #1 (Rumple's initiatives with DM/playergroup matchmaking, Castano's 'anyone and everyone sign up to DM' thing), which is great in the sense we do have a good number of folks in group 1. But the reality is very difficult to sustain a large number in that group (there's only so many DMs on at a given night/week, even good campaigns come to an end, DMs take breaks, sometimes things just fall apart); thinking that we can run ALFA on the idea that 'almost everyone can be in category #1 constantly' isn't a realistic thing to shoot for, unless you really want to envision alfa as a small club of regulars who log in for weekly sessions where we take turns DMing each other. I've heard people saying that's actually what they want/like, if I'm not mistaken, but to me (and I'm saying this as someone who both DMs and is lucky enough to be in group 1), that's a very insular, short sighted and narrow perspective, and more likely to ensure ALFA will stagnate eventually to the point where it's a club of a dozen players and handful of DMs. I also think we've kind of been down this way before with ALFA1's latter days.
We can improve our game so that people can enjoy their experience without having to be in group #1. To do that we need to come up with ways to encourage folks to shift towards #2, as well as make 3 or 4 as enjoyable as possible if they can't manage to quite get to 2. Spreading out the player/DM base across empty servers with half finished content and saying 'we just need more DMs to distract them from the fact we have unfinished stuff and not much to interact with'... I think we can do better than that.
THEN we can seriously start talking about advertising and have more reasons to think visitors will not only come, but stay.
We've seen a good deal of effort in the past year directed towards marketing/advertising through various means, including emailing old members, Facebook, reaching out to other communities besides NWN2, etc. We've even dropped the passwords on MS and BG.
I think some of that's worked. We've had new and old players come by and check things out.
Very few have stuck around.
Why? I think at least part of it is that we're not dealing with some things that folks in this thread and elsewhere (the Proposal forum) raised. Drumming up a lot of noise and advertising without substance to back it up so customers return and stay regular customers is not an effective strategy.
Sure, we have a pretty solid core of regulars who have managed to find something campaign-y to plug into regularly; those guys are going to be fairly happy no matter what (unless the campaigns stagnate or just don't fit the playstyle of the players, etc.). We also have about half dozen to dozen folks that are pretty good about logging in regularly and RPing no matter what, whether there's a DM or not, whether they have a regular organized schedule or not; whether they're in taverns or doing statics they log in regularly and find RP. They're also more likely to attract DMs even if they don't have a campaign thing set up.
These folks seem content with the product that we have, which is just that: ALFA works well when there's a campaing-y dynamic (which we've been especially reinforcing for the past year+) going on for those lucky enough to be part of a campaign that they enjoy. ALFA also works well enough if a regular group (could even be a group of 2) organize things (it might be as simple as logging in consistently at a set time) somewhat to the point they log in regularly and catch each other online.
There are a few folks who seem actually content long term without either of the above, to log in and catch other players or a DM once in a blue moon and RP with them, or log in and explore/do static quests etc if they're alone. Honestly, this is a very small number of folks; I would estimate 2 or 3. Then there's the rest (probably larger group) who have settled for something similar except they're NOT content.
So to break it down roughly (I'm sure there's folks that do not fit neatly into these categories; I hate categories like this but they can serve some purpose at times):
1. the lucky campaign-y guys happy to be getting regular DM sessions consistently
2. the dedicated/organized guys that log in to RP regularly, often with the same people and at the same times, no matter what
3. the 'happy to just be here' folks that seem content to simply log in and be able to RP a character in alfa, even if it's just doing a mail run 1x/week all alone.
4. the folks that are somewhere between 2 and 3, i.e not quite as regular/organized, but still better than 'log in for weekly mail run, log off'. These folks probably vary widely in their degree of satisfaction.
5. the unhappy group whose game looks similar to 3 (and it's not always as simple as 'why don't you just organize with others?' I realize) BUT would like more out of their game than the 'happy to just be here' folks.
Chances are, if a new player (or returning player after long absence) shows up, they're going to start out at 3 initially, though not always. Eventually however, odds are that they'll make an evaluation within a couple of weeks or so, and if they don't get out of the 3 (or 5) zone, they're probably going to leave.
I'd imagine for a lot of new folks, jumping from 3 to 1 requires a combination of luck and communication, perhaps some initiative, that the 'browsing customer' brought in by advertisement usually doesn't come laden with. The odds definitely are not helped by scattered timezones and players/DMs thinly stretched out on 4 servers, or even 2 open servers.
Jumping to #2 might be more feasible, if there were more type 2 players (i.e. Duncan's crew) actively looking for new folks to involve on all the servers. In reality, there aren't a ton of type 2 people around in alfa currently (even Duncan's crew seems to have disappeared again?). Again, the odds get much worse when things are spread out on multiple servers.
Moving to 4 is probably the most likely positive shift currently, though sliding all the way down to 5 is just as likely if not more so. Either way, 4 is far from an optimal experience to offer prospective new players, especially if they came expecting something more like 1 or 2 from the advertising.
We've been working on ways to promote #1 (Rumple's initiatives with DM/playergroup matchmaking, Castano's 'anyone and everyone sign up to DM' thing), which is great in the sense we do have a good number of folks in group 1. But the reality is very difficult to sustain a large number in that group (there's only so many DMs on at a given night/week, even good campaigns come to an end, DMs take breaks, sometimes things just fall apart); thinking that we can run ALFA on the idea that 'almost everyone can be in category #1 constantly' isn't a realistic thing to shoot for, unless you really want to envision alfa as a small club of regulars who log in for weekly sessions where we take turns DMing each other. I've heard people saying that's actually what they want/like, if I'm not mistaken, but to me (and I'm saying this as someone who both DMs and is lucky enough to be in group 1), that's a very insular, short sighted and narrow perspective, and more likely to ensure ALFA will stagnate eventually to the point where it's a club of a dozen players and handful of DMs. I also think we've kind of been down this way before with ALFA1's latter days.
We can improve our game so that people can enjoy their experience without having to be in group #1. To do that we need to come up with ways to encourage folks to shift towards #2, as well as make 3 or 4 as enjoyable as possible if they can't manage to quite get to 2. Spreading out the player/DM base across empty servers with half finished content and saying 'we just need more DMs to distract them from the fact we have unfinished stuff and not much to interact with'... I think we can do better than that.
THEN we can seriously start talking about advertising and have more reasons to think visitors will not only come, but stay.
Formerly: Aglaril Shaelara, Faerun's unlikeliest Bladesinger
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Current main: Ky - something
It’s not the critic who counts...The credit belongs to the man who actually is in the arena, who strives violently, who errs and comes up short again and again...who if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement, but who if he fails, fails while daring greatly.-T. Roosevelt
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
We could auto-assign all of our players to groups then let them sort things out amongst themselves/swap around.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
- CloudDancing
- Ancient Red Dragon
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
I heard many good ideas above and I can see that my proposal needs some adjustments, but what I am suggesting is not entirely unfeasible. Moreover, this discussion has given me time for thoughtful reflection about where Alfa is right now and has opened up an additional discussion about where we want to go with our servers in the future.
I just want to be there when the time for transformation is at hand and we can gracefully move into a new incarnation of this organization.
I just want to be there when the time for transformation is at hand and we can gracefully move into a new incarnation of this organization.
- dergon darkhelm
- Fionn In Disguise
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
I've been on vacation and mostly out of game for a month, but I did actually spend a number of daydreaming hours and had a couple of conversations with my old tabletop friends about our little community.CloudDancing wrote:
I just want to be there when the time for transformation is at hand and we can gracefully move into a new incarnation of this organization.
It's getting close to a decade that I've spent with ALFA. I'd wager that I have near to as many in-game hours as anyone around. Bt my drive to log-in is waning.
For my lay times there is very little activity as we drift toward becoming de facto campaign servers (despite the wonderful addition of some new content in recent months.... thanks for that!).
It feels to me like it did as ALFA NWN1 dwindled.
Maybe it is time to acknowledge that we are now in a period of inexorable population loss on this NWN2 platform? It's probably a slow dwindle, and those people playing in regular campaigns probably don't feel the decline as acutely as I do, but I want to bump this thread to revisit the idea that at some point we might be better served by a move to some yet TBD other platform.
I don't have inside information on coming new platforms (if any) nor do I have the expertise to evaluate them, but I really do hope that there is ... at some point in the future ... a new iteration of ALFA that can revitalize this great gaming community.
Maybe I am just wistful for a past that simply won't ever come again and am having a nice wallow in nostalgia.
I also want to be here when the time for transformation is at hand. But there is no doubt about it --- If things stay as they are I will continue to drift slowly away from ALFA. And that makes me sad.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
We don't have a viable new platform for as long as "Dungeons and Dragons in Forgotten Realms" remains part of our mission statement, because intellectual property problems. We can do fine in a little community like this, where our software is only modifications of the engine that everyone pays to buy the client for, but if we were to make our own with someone else's IP and distributed it for free on the internet, we would have lawyers descend upon us like it's armageddon.
Plenty of engines out there if we're just a "hardcore role-playing" community, though when this conversation ran and polls came with it, it sounded like people would rather have ALFA die than change-- maybe opinions have changed since then. I suspect not, though, and that we'll have to hope that the partnership between Paizo and Obsidian turns into a game engine in ~2 years.
Plenty of engines out there if we're just a "hardcore role-playing" community, though when this conversation ran and polls came with it, it sounded like people would rather have ALFA die than change-- maybe opinions have changed since then. I suspect not, though, and that we'll have to hope that the partnership between Paizo and Obsidian turns into a game engine in ~2 years.
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
What other engines are there, what are their player bases and what can we build with them?
We could build any game world we desire if we had a toolset and a player base.
We could build any game world we desire if we had a toolset and a player base.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
- oldgrayrogue
- Retired
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
Whenever I log into an ALFA server the Client Extension tells me that there are roughly 300 people out there playing this game over the servers listed. That's not a whole hell of a lot. The servers that still get 50 to 75 people logged in at once I have tried. They are full of min maxed powerleveled PCs where multiple and high powered PrCs seem to be the norm. There is not a lot of hardcore RP going on as far as I have seen.
I love PW play but like DD I have to concede that it is essentially gone in ALFA. I have tried to log in daily for a long time and hook up to RP with whomever I find. There just isn't much story going on or many people to play with outside of a DM run event. There is no longer any continuity among characters as in the past to RP around. Although I was not here for the end of NWN1, I have heard about it and it looks like we are now where you all were then in a de facto campaign style world. Campaign style play is still a huge amount of fun in ALFA, and we seem to have more willing DMs now than ever. Maybe we should just accept what we have become and as a part of that start talking about changes that are geared towards a better experience in a campaign style world. If people still want to log in and kill goblins and run mail statics once the switch to campaign play is official who cares?
As a long standing advocate of PW style play it pains me to say this but reality is what it is.
I love PW play but like DD I have to concede that it is essentially gone in ALFA. I have tried to log in daily for a long time and hook up to RP with whomever I find. There just isn't much story going on or many people to play with outside of a DM run event. There is no longer any continuity among characters as in the past to RP around. Although I was not here for the end of NWN1, I have heard about it and it looks like we are now where you all were then in a de facto campaign style world. Campaign style play is still a huge amount of fun in ALFA, and we seem to have more willing DMs now than ever. Maybe we should just accept what we have become and as a part of that start talking about changes that are geared towards a better experience in a campaign style world. If people still want to log in and kill goblins and run mail statics once the switch to campaign play is official who cares?
As a long standing advocate of PW style play it pains me to say this but reality is what it is.
- Darkmystic
- Owlbear
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Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
What Alfa needs to do is stop scaring people away and keeping small tight groups that only invite specific people. Many Swedes left cause they felt they were outside, never allowed to join the real fun. Also alot of DMs just do to bloody encounters, throwing fireball spewing liches on a group of lvl 5-6 people. Make Alfa more fair and more people will return.
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
We would be looking at something like the Unity engine if we were to migrate away from NWN2; they have communities, but they're typically developer communities to help people make games with the engine, and themselves only contain physics (so the engine would handle things like "objects draw pictures on the screen," "objects with mass fall toward the ground," and "you have a place to put code that's supposed to run when two objects bump into each other").Castano wrote:What other engines are there, what are their player bases and what can we build with them?
We could build any game world we desire if we had a toolset and a player base.
It'd be more work than producing the ACR was, and something like Standards would probably be too much overhead to make it happen, but that's a thing for which there are possibilities and implications.
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
Interesting that no ones asked me to run anything for them on ms and I often log onto BG with Toby only for hours of nothing. I'm just saying there is still chances for non campaign play here
"Cast in his unlikely role....ill equipped to act"
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
Good point. When I talk about communities I mean player bases. e.g. NWN2 has a daily player base of ____ if you add all the servers up and ___ active accounts (e.g. people who own NWN2 and still play it). This represents a group we can recruit from and service with ALFA modules.they have communities, but they're typically developer communities
A developer base is nice if your goal is to build stuff for the sake of building it. The first criteria for any expansion to a second platform might be "we will be using System X because System X has 1000/2000 whatever total players and of that group there is an RP presence." Unity is not going to work if it's just being used to make various games. Where would the players come from?
The other option is to actually build a game with Unity and distribute it (for free) - this would be the creation of our own game title. ALFA SRD let's call it for sake of having a name. You'd have to tackle the aspect of making the product, and getting it to its target audience. Essentially from what I read above Unity involves becoming a freeware gaming company. I am not opposed to that concept but you will need much more regimentation in the build out with due dates etc. And you risk not gathering players during your title launch.
On playing together: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307 ... 6efFP.html
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Useful resource: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
On bad governance: "I intend to bring democracy to this nation, and if anybody stands in my way I will crush him and his family."
You're All a Bunch of Damn Hippies
Re: Brainstorm: The Next Evolution of Alfa
I've asked, you need to get a fixed time slot.Analogkid wrote:Interesting that no ones asked me to run anything for them on ms and I often log onto BG with Toby only for hours of nothing. I'm just saying there is still chances for non campaign play here
First Character: Zyrus Meynolt, the serene Water Genasi berserker. "I am the embodiment of the oceans; serene until you summon the storm." Zyrus: http://tinyurl.com/9emdbnd
Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"
Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies
Second Character: Damien Collins, the atypical druid. "What? Being a stick in the mud is boring. No pun intended grins"
Western Heartlands HDM: On break. PM for emergencies