Stoneskin Question

[I-KP]

Familiars are just as terrible, if not worse, for the same reasons.

Familiars are directly controllable. Familiars are not even in the same league of shitness that ACs now dominate. Familiars are also expected to operate in entirely different circumstances to that of ACs.

Shared Spell would probably rein in some of their now exacerbated crapitude. Some form of time limited direct control to emulate Link or Tricks would be nice but I appreciate that might be tricky given the current tools. It's often easier to disable stuff than enable it.

ALFA ACs are now shockingly pants compared to PnP, as some are intimately aware; they lost nigh on 80% of their raison d'être in NWN2 and even tho SS was hideously OP it did help make up for some of those failings. Now that's gone ACs are just down right liabilities in ALFA. They need some lovin'.

[Zelknolf]

Of course, directly controlling a familiar means ceasing to control your character-- so they may behave suicidally in combat (unless you've disable them, where they go into the lowest-cost variety of suicidal behavior and do nothing). They also lack the powers that balanced them in PnP and are inferior to ACs in direct combat. There doesn't seem to be anything refuting the point that they'd have more utility in the same way that ACs are claimed to have utility if we made it easy to stoneskin them. As I recall, this was the line of argument.

If we want to talk about the broader problems with ACs, sure. Like many (most?) systems in NWN2, they are decidedly flawed. Like most useful projects, they end up sitting on a backlog because the number of people with complaints and pet projects outnumbers the number of people who actually play here-- and certainly outnumbers the number of people who will actually work to see it done.

[I-KP]

Of course, directly controlling a familiar means ceasing to control your character-- so they may behave suicidally in combat (unless you've disable them, where they go into the lowest-cost variety of suicidal behavior and do nothing). They also lack the powers that balanced them in PnP and are inferior to ACs in direct combat. There doesn't seem to be anything refuting the point that they'd have more utility in the same way that ACs are claimed to have utility if we made it easy to stoneskin them. As I recall, this was the line of argument.

Not really. Familiars aren't expected to be called up for meat shield duties whereas ACs are, ergo SS on an AC is materially beneficial to their meat and potatoes duty. Doesn't matter how you try to cut it ACs are meant to brawl whereas Familiars aren't and given how shit ACs are in NWN2 most often they end up being sent to meet their uncontrollable demise whereas Familiars do still manage to accomplish their defined duty; SS, accepting it was OP (because it was), made the AC's primary function somewhat survivable. Unless of course every Druid in ALFA is now meant to treat their AC like throw-away Summons. If that is the case then when (if) I do play again I'll roll in the Bear artillery.

If we want to talk about the broader problems with ACs, sure. Like many (most?) systems in NWN2, they are decidedly flawed. Like most useful projects, they end up sitting on a backlog because the number of people with complaints and pet projects outnumbers the number of people who actually play here-- and certainly outnumbers the number of people who will actually work to see it done.

Honest question: How hard would it be to drop in a take on Shared Spell?

[Zelknolf]

Those familiars would, however, be better if they were stoneskinned, yes? Those poor beat-up sorcerers (none of whom have had Tam's current level; the closest ones died) would be more survivable, and a currently largely useless class feature would have a little more umph, if it was easy to stoneskin the magic cat.



And your request involves editing every spell that could be shared to check for that companion and share the effects-- plus some modification to our fundamental handling of effects to detect which ones came from shared spell, and an avenue to remove those spells if the AC and druid get separated. I'd put it at 150-200hrs of work to take it from design -> release, and probably a third as much again committed to fixes. Double all numbers if an inexperienced dev takes it.

Not that such requests are atypical-- or indeed that the methods being used here are atypical-- it's pretty common for people to vitriolically shout about how important things that would devour a couple months of my life are to them, and then do nothing to help, not bother to read the documentation I produce about it, not contribute to design discussions, and generally don't say thanks for the work. The v1.90 release represents about six months of my work, for example, and two months of Foam's. As of right now, 199 views, 6 thankyous, no outside contributions (even from the people who volunteered it), and two ranty bits in the forums with matching silliness in chat.

[Rumple C]

blah blah

Thanks for the tireless admin and tech work and hosting and building.

blah blah

I'd like to count my previous in advance thanks to the tech team.

Also, players allready get max hp's, and dont have to pay the component cost (500 gold per pop).

[I-KP]

Those familiars would, however, be better if they were stoneskinned, yes? Those poor beat-up sorcerers (none of whom have had Tam's current level; the closest ones died) would be more survivable, and a currently largely useless class feature would have a little more umph, if it was easy to stoneskin the magic cat.

Familiars fulfil their primary function fairly adequately in NWN2 ALFA. Animal companions do not. (Accepting that SS was OP and needed changing, it did help ACs fulfil their primary role; whereas SS has sod all to do with a Familiar's primary function.)

I'd put it at 150-200hrs.

Not really viable then. Fair enough. SS had to be changed and it is a shame that already shit ACs came away from that as collateral damage. AC survivability does need looking at otherwise ALFA will reap the Bear artillery whirlwind (but probably not by me because I'm pretty much done with ALFA).

The hyper-defensive paragraph was unnecessary.

[FoamBats4All]

Someone is saying familiars are more fair than animal companions in NWN2.

Clearly this discussion has no further basis in reality.

- - - - -

Anyway, if someone actually wants to work to make companions better, please, step forward. I have some improvements to familiars that need testing/further work, that someone can pick back up and work on.

[I-KP]

Someone is saying familiars are more fair than animal companions in NWN2.
Clearly this discussion has no further basis in reality.

ACs are shit. Familiars are less shit. That's all she wrote. If you can't see that then the problem is entirely yours to deal with.

Sayonara dudes. I'm gone.

[Wild Wombat]

Thank you Zelk and Foam?

Yes, I am still grateful.

Have you ever worked on something for months and then when it goes into "Production" the end-users do not praise all that is good about it, but instead focus on what they see as wrong?

No? Well, I guess you aren't in software development. I am all too familiar with that. (Animal or not)

[Castano]

agreed, putting spells to PnP has been a long term ALFA project that spans many many admin. This was not something new cooked up to F with druids. ALFA players should fully expect that if an NWN2 spell does not match DnD that it may one day be edited to match.

That's all folks.