Open Comment Period: PrC Approval Process

[I-KP]

Most players are lucky to have a PrC to aim for. Some classes, such as Druids, don’t have anything worth going for. On the other hand, Druids are born awesome. If I was to aim for a PrC with the wee Hin I’d be happy doing whatever was necessary via PM, even Play-by-PM. In-game interaction would of course be the optimal route but taking things ‘off-line’ works almost as well if both player and DM are willing; certainly for players who do not continually update their bio on account of not seeing much online activity.

[Galadorn]

Shifter! Horizon Walker! ...wait...shot down like Goose in Top Gun!

[Heero]

Whether the reason amounts to real life, unreasonable player expectations, or unfavorable time-slot availability, I dont think its all that difficult to see that there is not the DM time to support a PrC quest for every player that desires a PrC. RP requirements outside of custom-tailored DM events isnt all that unreasonable, nor is requiring character development revolving around events that actually take place, whether or not they are relevant to one's chosen PrC. It might be ideal for you to have your story custom tailored to you by a DM in a manner pleasing to you, but thats hardly feasible with the DM resources available to the project. I think all of you here are creative enough to RP your character's development toward a PrC using the events he or she does have opportunity to experience, even if these events aren't laid out specifically as PrC development for him/her by a DM.

[chalksoul]

I'm not sure I agree that PrC is default are more specuial than base classes. Spirit shaman, palladin etc is for me not more common than an duelist or a warpriest. (I do agree that some PrC is very special and could just as Favored Soul require application)

[boombrakh]

I'm not sure I agree that PrC is default are more specuial than base classes. Spirit shaman, palladin etc is for me not more common than an duelist or a warpriest. (I do agree that some PrC is very special and could just as Favored Soul require application)

This.

[Witchdoctor]

I'm not sure I agree that PrC is default are more specuial than base classes. Spirit shaman, palladin etc is for me not more common than an duelist or a warpriest. (I do agree that some PrC is very special and could just as Favored Soul require application)

This.

+1

[Zelknolf]

Prestige classes are rare by definition-- that was the core logic that introduced them in 3.0, and all canon surrounding it lists them as things that are held by very few very special people. While it's true that it's common for people to look like certain PrCs or claim to be special, they're probably not. The "common" shadowdancer is just a rogue; the "common" duelist is just a swashbuckler; the "common" red wizard is just a wizard.

Whether or not this makes our world internally consistent is a whole other matter. But if we're going to pick on that one, I'm going to start with "IC, we have stable, consistent, and reproduceable faster-than-light travel-- cheaper if we just want to communicate-- and none of the implications of that are realised anywhere. Not even in Spelljammer."

[kmj2587]

Are PrCs so rare because they're difficult to achieve, even by appropriate level characters, or are they rare because appropriate level characters are so rare among the general populace? Sure, any first level swashbuckler can run around calling himself a "duelist", but is it rare among 7th or 8th level swashbucklers that actively pursue that style/path/whatever? How many people supposedly try and fail to attain a PrC?

I guess what it boils down to is whether or not Base Class(x) is supposed to be easier than Base Class (x-1)/PrC(1), given that the PC is rare enough to have achieved level x.

Back to the main question though, I like the idea of making it easier (or at least less DM intensive) to get into PrCs. Personally, I hate the idea of asking a DM to run a personalized quest just for my character just so I can level up.

When considering this issue I would be very interested in feedback from people who have been through the whole PrC quest process. There's a lot of mention of how PrC quests can include a number of other players, but I would be interested in how frequently and to what degree other PCs are involved with such quests in practice. A lot of things CAN be done, but it would be more valuable to know what is actually being done.

[Zelknolf]

I guess what it boils down to is whether or not Base Class(x) is supposed to be easier than Base Class (x-1)/PrC(1), given that the PC is rare enough to have achieved level x.

Canon and core rulebooks say "Base Class (x-1)/PrC(1) is rarer than Base Class(X) because the former is harder to achieve"

For what exactly constitutes "harder" and what is meant to allow a given PrC for a given character, that's left up to the DM. I counter only the notion that any given PrC is supposed to be easier to achieve than any given base class; we have unambiguous information that such is not true.


Interestingly enough, though, the introduction of PrCs to 3.0/3.5 advocates not telling players that PrCs even exist. It proposes requiring the players to actually discover that PrCs are possible through the course of play, and then start to pursue the requirements based on what they learned with some dim hope that the natural progress of their characters qualified them for the PrC (and then presents Loremaster, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, and Assassin as examples of PrCs). 'course, it took all of one month before PrCs were in player-facing books and the DMG isn't exactly a secret document, but there's your original design its inevitable subversion.

[FoamBats4All]

Interestingly enough, though, the introduction of PrCs to 3.0/3.5 advocates not telling players that PrCs even exist. It proposes requiring the players to actually discover that PrCs are possible through the course of play, and then start to pursue the requirements based on what they learned with some dim hope that the natural progress of their characters qualified them for the PrC (and then presents Loremaster, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, and Assassin as examples of PrCs). 'course, it took all of one month before PrCs were in player-facing books and the DMG isn't exactly a secret document, but there's your original design its inevitable subversion.

Which is hilarious, considering that a player has absolutely no hope of getting a PrC on the first round if they're not preparing/building towards it early.

[Zelknolf]

Interestingly enough, though, the introduction of PrCs to 3.0/3.5 advocates not telling players that PrCs even exist. It proposes requiring the players to actually discover that PrCs are possible through the course of play, and then start to pursue the requirements based on what they learned with some dim hope that the natural progress of their characters qualified them for the PrC (and then presents Loremaster, Blackguard, Shadowdancer, and Assassin as examples of PrCs). 'course, it took all of one month before PrCs were in player-facing books and the DMG isn't exactly a secret document, but there's your original design its inevitable subversion.

Which is hilarious, considering that a player has absolutely no hope of getting a PrC on the first round if they're not preparing/building towards it early.

Well, the original batch of PrCs had pretty low bars-- consider how easily one can turn a typical build from base classes into a Blackguard (spend a feat and a few skill points), Shadowdancer (spend a few skill points), or Assassin (kill some bloke), and how useful those stats would be to typical members of those classes (e.g. what monk or rogue wouldn't benefit from Hide in Plain Sight? Who doesn't want full BAB and sneak attack?). Obviously, by the time we get to the Complete series, those assumptions were gone and forgotten, and PrCs were written without considering how an already-active character would pursue them.

[Castano]

I'm read through all the comments. One thing should be clear: DMA will not support a quest requirement for any PrCs. That's what caused the level-up/bottleneck problem in the first place. We're going to move the gates on PrCs someplace else, preferably at the start of the path. If you want to quest and you have a DM for it, go for it.

[Witchdoctor]

Do not have plans with either of my PCs to gain a PrC, but I do feel that we can give a bit of slack to the players that might want to go down that road. First of all I do have an expectation of compelling PCs being created regardless of class. High Quality RP is what alfa is really about yes?

Zelk is right in that PrCs are very rare and even without direct DM interaction on a coninuous basis guiding them, I hope to see alfans self police the RP requirements and display this in some format to all DMs that care to look in on them from time to time. The difficulty in attaining the PrC should not be lessed on the PC, rather it should lessen demand for DM time and energy. I feel very confident I could do that and my RP skills are much lower than most I have encountered in alfa to date. Time will tell if we need stronger action to be taken.

[danielmn]

Let whomever take whatever whenever.

I can't recall the last time someone DIDN't get a PrC they were trying for. (ie. failed a PrC quest) But likely plenty of folks unable because of no dm interests.

Give the players what they demand. Simply rely on the PrC requirements, and remove any other nonsense requirements. THat should make all of our individuals even more individualistic, and alfa more like other PW's out there that promote "fun". To hell with Rp requirements. Last I checked, isn't that important.

[Matti]

chalksoul wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that PrC is default are more specuial than base classes. Spirit shaman, palladin etc is for me not more common than an duelist or a warpriest. (I do agree that some PrC is very special and could just as Favored Soul require application)

+1
In my experience it isn't that easy to find a dm for the evaluation and story that leads towards an PrC (or along some special classes and characters evolution). I think that by mentioning the PrC/playstyle you have in mind in your bio might help and the use of an application of sorts could also prove beneficial. Mostly by adding transparency to your characters wills and wants towards the dms which just might get someone interested in the story you are hoping to experience . Role-playing your character is essential and should well be within the requirements of any greater progress for a character.
Some of us are indeed interested in rp challenges even if danielmn spews forth negativity