Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC policy:

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Castano
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Castano »

Wild Wombat wrote:
Witchdoctor wrote:<snip>How about areas or zones where pvp is not allowed? The carebears can stay there and the other areas are free game so to speak.<snip>
What, I'm back less than a week and already there are restrictions on where I can go? :P

(Joke that wouldn't have been "inside" 7 or 8 years ago.)

As for the subject matter, I am withholding all opinions on most things for as long as I can stand it. Having opinions leads to flame wars and some folks might remember how much I hate flame wars. Darn things can even sneak up on a Care Bear and before he knows it he is a smoking cinder for Mother/J'kin to light a cigar with.

Not that I ever got in a flame war with Mother. I know better than to fight a battle I can't win. (And WW and J'kin became bestest friends, the end.)

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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Gebb »

Wow, this is a lame idea and subversion of ALFA's foundation. Should we require monsters and other encounters to get consent before killing a PC (I've lost many more PCs to senseless automated encounters than to other PCs)? Or we could just enforce the original ALFA CvC policy, DM justly even when it hurts feelings, and not coddle and entertain quibbling after a CvC encounter. ALFA leadership is taking the easy wrong vs hard right on this issue.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by I-KP »

Gebb wrote:Wow, this is a lame idea and subversion of ALFA's foundation. Should we require monsters and other encounters to get consent before killing a PC (I've lost many more PCs to senseless automated encounters than to other PCs)? Or we could just enforce the original ALFA CvC policy, DM justly even when it hurts feelings, and not coddle and entertain quibbling after a CvC encounter. ALFA leadership is taking the easy wrong vs hard right on this issue.
Clearly never been a DM. The ALFA of old is gone. Low numbers cannot sustain the old policies (nor vice versa). It's called adapting to the environment.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Galadorn »

...and CvC is not gone... it's just...... real damn hard to murdalize another PC unless they are stupid, deserve it, or are looking for it. *shrugs*
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Ronan »

Xanthea wrote:I think that a rule that you must give people an OOC warning that if they continue to do the same things that they're doing then your character may attack theirs solves the same thing without the headache of people being able to refuse it. That covers spontaneous situations without a history between the two. Premeditated situations should still require a DM though.

Player 1: "If your character keeps insulting mine then I may attack you."
Player 2: "Ok. Noted. Thanks." *character spits and walks off*

I've had that exact situation happen before and it worked out like a charm, everyone being perfectly mature about it. If they continue to do the same thing after an OOC warning then they're implicitly consenting to a conflict.
I very much like this rule, and in fact it would solve many of the recent trouble-cases. In practice of course most every CvC requires a DM because one player is always going to want to do something out-of-engine. However this rule certainly seems preferable to a strict consent requirement: it deals with the case of the asshat antagonist who refuses to CvC. Does anyone feel otherwise?
Zelknolf wrote:Two problems, of course:
"Probably a good idea" is a far cry from "done". We've a mighty stack of things in ALFA which are probably a good idea, but which are still problems-- for numerous reasons. You've recently taken point on that topic, too; you know how horrible it is.
Greater missile storms come to mind, though no active PC can cast that spell. The super-OP bigbies we agreed to ban the use of in CvC. Really there aren't very many left, and I trust our current admin to make the right decisions here. If we don't trust them then we have much larger problems than lowbie-on-highbie violence and should push for a full ban on CvC until things can get fixed.
Zelknolf wrote:Secondly, the asymmetry still means that this policy can protect a character from CvC for a long enough time to change the outcome (not that we don't have that now, but it's not explicitly sanctioned now). I would think that fairness would demand that we should protect characters from the consequences of actions we force them to take: if you're not allowed to handle a problem while you're still able, you shouldn't be forced to deal with it after it's too much to handle.
Again the idea is that a lowbie simply isn't a problem worth actively pursuing; if he somehow manages to become so (say by setting the highbie's house on fire, murdering a friend, etc.) then there is obviously no protection by this policy. We could quantify "worth" by a variety of means, all of which could be exploited by the lowbie leaving the highbie's server before he or she reached a "huntable" level of power. We are trying to protect the weak from the powerful, but power is not fixed in time and our foresight is limited.

I didn't mean to imply the concept was perfect, but a bored highbie wanting to squash a lowbie is simply far more common than a lowbie power-leveling above the highbie in some long-term plan for CvC domination. The former approach is quick and riskless, while the later is slow and likely much riskier. We can take care of the more-common case much more easily than the less common one because its simple to look at two character sheets and spot a large level difference.

Quantify the difference if you want. I did not intend for it to be a rule, as much as "DMs have the final say, but here's how we'll decide". Currently we give no guidelines on when CvC is considered acceptable and when its asshattery. I believe the lack of guidelines is a much bigger problem than a lack of rules.

The human fear of violence over much more common forms of death and dismemberment is really annoying. You all should not be afraid of CvC, you should be afraid of me :P
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Zelknolf »

The human fear of violence over much more common forms of death and dismemberment is really annoying. You all should not be afraid of CvC, you should be afraid of me
This is the precise fear being voiced here; discretion is arbitrary by definition. You are human, with human inclinations and limitations. Regardless of even your very best intentions, your actions will be influenced by personal bias, taste, and experience-- as will mine, as will anyone's. Even the most robotic and emotionless of us is stuck with the twisted up sack of meat to contain memories, which it's very bad at. As an obvious example of the sort that came up here: shortly after I moved my character to BG and asked if you would hold any regular sessions there. You said that you had no intention of doing any regular sessions on BG, and then started the Sword's Edge regular session that week.

Now, it doesn't take a particularly-clever person to figure out why you might've said no, and I don't believe it to be outside the usual social norms (how many people say "I'm getting into dating right now" when they mean "I don't find anything about you interesting or appealing"?) but we're suddenly in a very odd position if that comes up here. The ability of a given character to appropriately counter a credible threat depends upon a DM being interested and enthusiastic enough about that player, their character, or that character's efforts to actually run it, and the advancement of time is going to diminish any existing advantage because the effect of experience points on abilities is greater on lower-level characters.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Castano »

Just ban CvC at this point. tired of it all. we have piles of forums full of asshat behavior all over the place when it comes to CvC. Why should we as a project continue to entertain this type of game (1) it's not fun for any of the people who engage in it except the victor and (2) it takes literally hours or days or weeks of play time away from admin and DMs because every player involved has filed a compliant over it in the past years. Face facts people you love your PCs too much to let them die without whipping out a rulebook. You cry when a DM kills you with a spawn. Demand retcons all the time....for everything. There rarely was a death in ALFA without the word lag attached to it. I can point to like 3 people that accept PC deaths and move on to roll a new PC. Give me answers to those questions please and let me know why you think you are a hardcore leet RPer when you look at your own actions :P

keep arguing guys....
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by danielmn »

Does that mean I am a hardcore leet rper? AWESOME!!!!

((but seriously...ALFA is full of the DM's girlfriends....))
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Castano »

not yet Dan, if you roll a new PC you are...

(and even if it were full of our GFs, what better way to say i love you than driving a dagger through the heart of your GF's favorite PC?)
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by FoamBats4All »

Well, we've had 7 PC deaths in the past week, are you implying that we have nearly 7 instances of players asking for tech rezzes, blaming lag, etc?

But yes, people get attached to characters. That doesn't mean we should remove CvC. The goal is just to make it so that asshats can't go around throwing their weight, doing CvC just because they want to CvC (without legitimate roleplay reasons behind it).
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Stormseeker »

Hmm didn't think this was that big of a problem, how about we keep it simple? Thinking about this problem there seems to be no easy answers if you keep cvc.
I am for cvc, but have only been in 3 my whole time in alfa. 1st was bad but the other 2 was done correctly with no hard fealings.
If we disallow cvc then the dm's will have to deal with the complaints from people who are being stalked by "bullies" who know they can't be touched in game. With this group of people it will happen.
So keep cvc but make it simple rules with rewards/punishment. They can range from attacker must leave server for 30 days, defender gets a rp bonus(item,xp,gp,etc) for rping their character and death. Wanted poster's dead or alive,npc bounty hunters, etc...
Turn it from being a chore and headache to a means to more challenging role play with reward punishment.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Regas »

I've been holding off on finalizing this and polling members because I really don't like giving up hard core CvC for ALFA.
We've spent a lot of time here and in closed forums thinking about how to keep CvC in ALFA without driving off our players and dms because of a handful of members that are too inappropriate or immature for CvC.

The only other solution I see to the consent rule would be a much more pro-active and subjective management of members that have trouble using CvC appropriately. Basically, the PA and or DMA would simply red flag members causing problems, they would not be able to participate in CvC in any way (including having others CvC with them). This could change if the player's behavior improves or maybe they make a new PC that isn't a psycho killer, for instance. Some of you will say, well just ban them- but that's not practical and is a non-starter. Everyone is happy to suggest banning until they themselves have to do it- believe me it's not pleasant or easy in alfa, especially with our small numbers.

I believe this makes sense as we would not be punishing the larger membership for the bad behavior of a few members. It does make for a change in policy as it's pro-active instead of re-active. Rather than waiting for trouble and then getting staff and dms buried in weeks of complaint, cross complaint and appeals threads, ultimately leading to much drama, animosity and possibly sanctions, we simply side-line the problem players. I will tell you those that ultimately get side-lined from CvC will not be happy and will not think it's fair.
You of course need to have a good amount of faith and confidence in the PA to be level headed and as fair as possible.

Below is the revised CvC policy we will be using, based on the feedback from this thread.
I will be posting a poll shortly where members can vote to either adopt this policy or the admin red flag policy I discussed above this post. A big thanks to everyone who participated in these efforts.

One finial note, I am going to propose, subject to admin and HDM discussion, that evil alignments are added to the extraordinary approval list.

Thanks,
Reg

Alfa CvC policy:

CvC requires DM oversight and DMs are not required in any way to provide such oversight if they would rather invest their time elsewhere. The only exception to this rule is when Players agree to consensual CvC without DM oversight, and in such cases there is no appeal for what may come of such CvC.

The following information is provied to help clarify the above policy:

You may engage in Character vs. Character conflict in ALFA when:

You have been granted permission from the DM team, and there is a DM overseeing the conflict.
DM's have the right to ignore or refuse CvC requests for any reason, and such refusal is not appealable to any admin in ALFA
In accordance with ALFA's broader rules, you must notify us as soon as the intent to commit CvC is established.

-OR-

All involved parties consent.
If all parties consent to CvC without a DM, they forfeit any right to contest the results with the DM team or Player Admin, although staff may act if they wish. Screenshots should be taken of in-game tells showing this consent. This consent can include the use of abilities which otherwise require a DM, such as invisibility or grappling, even if no DM is present. In short we just won't touch consensual CvC. Have a ball. Parties may of course also consent to CvC with a DM present. Naturally the location must be suitable so that it does not require DM involvement. For example, do not engage in CvC in front of guards without a DM present.

...............................................................................................................

Any players found to be gaming the CvC rules to bully or provoke other players and subsequently hide behind the consent rule will face severe IC and OOC consequences to include censure for griefing.
  • Once a PC's behavior has solicited a request from another player for CvC that player must stop the ic behavior if they wish to decline CvC.
  • Examples of provocation include but are not limited to brandishing weapons, casting spells (buffing), antagonistic language, obvious hostile or openly provocative actions (defiling altars, killing innocents ect).
  • Make use of non-lethal combat, the ic legal structures of the settings, and other appropriate rp methods to offer a range of responses short of lethal CvC where appropriate.
  • Logs and screenshots should be used when dealing with pc conflicts.
  • Griefing, meta-gaming or trying to game these rules will lead to sanctions or banning.
...............................................................................................................

You may NOT engage in CvC when:
  • It primarily results from a random encounter between two or more PCs in a public or outdoor location (wilderness, road, tavern, shop, etc.). ALFA is geographically much smaller than it should be, and so we must fudge random encounters in order to support PC diversity.
  • A PC 'hates' all members of another race or public faction which is not normally kill-on-sight in their environment.
  • It is a random act of violence; that is what NPCs are for. The CvC must be sparked by RP on both sides of the conflict.
  • There is a large level difference, unless the defender is a known antagonizer of the attacker or the attacker's faction(s). High-level PCs should have better things to do than pursue lowbies.
  • The DM team is busy and has no time to deal with it.
  • The aggressor is willfully causing grief or disrupting others' ability to enjoy the game without meaningful context to role-play. We often enjoy PCs coming into conflict, but if players do as well then something as gone wrong.
If a PC requires an IC reason not to engage in CvC, the DM team can provide it.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by FoamBats4All »

Regas wrote:One finial note, I am going to propose, subject to admin and HDM discussion, that evil alignments are added to the extraordinary approval list.
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Re: Open comment period, proposed changes to ALFA's CvC poli

Post by Ronan »

Regas, I really think you should look at Xan's implied consent idea.
Zelknolf wrote:
The human fear of violence over much more common forms of death and dismemberment is really annoying. You all should not be afraid of CvC, you should be afraid of me
This is the precise fear being voiced here; discretion is arbitrary by definition. You are human, with human inclinations and limitations. Regardless of even your very best intentions, your actions will be influenced by personal bias, taste, and experience-- as will mine, as will anyone's. Even the most robotic and emotionless of us is stuck with the twisted up sack of meat to contain memories, which it's very bad at. As an obvious example of the sort that came up here: shortly after I moved my character to BG and asked if you would hold any regular sessions there. You said that you had no intention of doing any regular sessions on BG, and then started the Sword's Edge regular session that week.
When I joined the BG team I had no intentions of regular sessions, then Ksiel stopped DMing and asked me to continue his Bandit King plot. If you recall I tried to get the Selunites involved as well, though that failed for reasons no one bothered to explain to me until weeks afterwards. As SE got more involved in the plot I became more and more of a campaign DM, something I'd never been before. In any case I think my DMing is considerably more lethal than you'd like and things probably worked out for the best.

Anyway, I was referring to people irrationally fearing CvC when its a very uncommon cause of death. paazin's statics, both of our spawns or my DMing are much more common ways to die. Lethal CvC is extremely rare, partially because we try and talk people out of it. The threat and possibility of CvC is of course very common and impacts RP for the better.

Yes I realize arbitrary rule is arbitrary and may lead to unfair results. You point out flaws in the policy, I point out those flaws are edge-cases. We aren't going to get anywhere further with that discussion. Obviously the edge cases aren't so edgy in your case, and lowbie-protection is never going to apply to Persephone. If you're personally worried over her you don't need to be. Boom will win an admin election before staff does something to kill her, by allowing CvC or otherwise.

I would prefer obvious over obfuscated arbitrariness, so we aren't leading people to believe we have more impartiality than we do. Staff currently refuses to allow CvCs based on reasons other than policy or rules. It would be nice to put their reasons into real policy.
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