Familiars and Animal Companions, a few thoughts

[Galadorn]

In harcore RP, losing and replacing a familiar or animal companion is also a traumatic, painful and lengthy process (one year waiting time) akin to losing a beloved companion or even an eye or a limb. If you attacked someone's mundane pet in RL without cause that might be grounds for a fistfight; attacking a familiar/animal companion might very well be cause for outright on the spot cvc without further warning.

It used to be 1 year IC/rules i think, but now officially I think it's 24 hours.

My preference is to keep the "year" long wait to symbolize the mourning my PCs would have in the loss.

I do love the RP of Animal Companions so much though, I personally use the old-school ALFA1 "time exchange" for my "1-year wait", i chose 8-9:1, so, if an AC dies, and I don't raise it, i wait 40 days. I waited over 60 days once as well.

Which basically means never summoning the AC ever, as if it was not optional (when in fact the NWN2 game engine DOES allow you to re-summon the AC anytime after it dies, for single person play I guess *shrugs*).

...they're am important part of what wizards/sorcerers get as unlike an animal companion they're intelligent so are able to do a lot more, by comparison an animal companion even in pnp is basically a meat shield (pnp, they can be taught to do a few tricks, little more) outside of any IC love the master may feel for them.

ouch...not in my book , in fact I think Animal Companions are even more important to Druids/Rangers as bonded companions than arcane familiars are to their bonded Wizard or Sorc. But, that's my Druid-at-heart's opinion of course.

I am not sure what mechanical barriers exist to getting a new AC in our NWN2 version. It may be that even without DM intervention, this may simply get reset on next level.

I've been through it twice with Bu. There are "tricks" to reset Animal Companions since when you FIRST pick an animal companion it gets hardcoded to that PC until another (rare) animal companion "choice" becomes available... which resets that hard-code. For example... Clerics with Animal Domain ....get an animal companion... so any character, anytime, at any level, who chooses Cleric with Animal Domain, gets to choose an animal companion when they are choosing that level's level-up options. Same for of course, Druid. Or level 4 Ranger...

For an even more detailed example:

1. Druid level 1 picks Boar AC.

2. Boar dies when Druid is level 3 for example.

3. Druid does what's needed (with DM) to get a "new" AC. (perhaps he wants a Bear maybe, or perhaps the DM session leads to a Bear "answering" the Druid's call, whatever...).

4. DM can do this: Grant TEMPORARY XP to level up the Druid to level 4, the player chooses Cleric level 1, with Animal Domain... as she or he levels up, she or he chooses the Bear animal companion -- this RESETS the hardcoded animal companion "race" for that PC to "Bear"...
and of course allows the player to choose a new "Name" for the new AC too.

5. DM then takes that Temporary XP away, reducing the PC back to level 3 Druid again.

So, the code has now been changed to reflect the new Bear AC.

Only issue with this was, I think this can only be done once.

The NEXT time, that PC wants a NEW AC, he or she will need the DM to grant him 4 (four) levels of Ranger... which again then allows that PC to choose a new AC... which will allow him her to re-level and during the level-up choice again, he/she can then choose another race, example "Spider" or whatever if he she wants it, and if DM approves, etc.

...aaaaaand.... finally, if you're CODE-SAVVY... like the almighty paazin (who i think did this for me before)... and others... ...there is ALSO a way to go into .BIC files, or some other code manually, and just change the "race" and "name" fields within the code directly to change animal companions for PCs also!

But the "level-up-1-Cleric-level-plus-Animal-Domain" trick is easily done, no harm, no foul, by any DM, even non-Techie easy enough... but again, it can only be done ONCE for each class that allows an Animal Companion "choice".

In response to the OP: And this is why NWN2 did not adopt the familiar death rules from DnD. I suggest we jettison them also. Our AI does not support familiar combat reactions, and the things are essentially gonna die all the time if they are outside.

I think the player (and PC!) should be very focused in protecting any familiar/animal-companion that is ever possibly in combat, and unsummon/defend it at all costs... and if he/she keeps it out, and it dies, suffer the consequences of course.

When in doubt, don't have it out,

If it does die, don't you cry.

-=-=- -=-=- -=-=-

I consider at least Druid animal companions a HUGE and over-powered in fact, bonus and privilege ... not just "a class feature" that someone thought equalized the "power" of a Druid at 1st level or any level.

If anyone treats it like cannon fodder, and loses it, that is grounds for that Druid's or Ranger's God to NEVER grant a future Animal Companion "privilege" ever again.

Not the same for Mages. They can just do the ritual again and re-make/summon a new one i think... or even create one like with Homonculouses right? Personally I don't even think Mages need be "as required" to love, cherish, or even "like" their familiars - again MY OPINION. Go ahead and flame, i know it's coming, and YES i'm a little biased.

Death happens, and mistakes or accidents happen sure! no problem. But purposeful use of as a tank? Man that would need some heavy RP backing that up I think.

In my case, if Bu even ever RARELY has his Animal Companion out when in any kind of dangerous area, the Animal Companion has more protective buffs on than Bu does, and that is only to make sure if they get surprised, Bu has enough time to order it to flee (OOC: Unsummon it early).

The first heals go to it. Re-buffs go it first, and this is only in some of the rarest times ever as Bu never even wants his Animal Companion to take even a scratch on his account...
(All this and consider Bu's AC now has over 100hps, a huge armor class, multiple attacks for much better damage than Bu in fact.)

Bu's AC is 99% RP value*.

-=-=- -=-=- -=-=-

I witnessed a ranger with an animal companion a while ago, openly RPing IC and talking about how his animal companion has died to enemies in battle...often... and how when it dies, his God grants him new ones poof - just like that, etc, ...hmm... really seemed like TO ME an IC way to avoid all the trouble of protecting it! ...and just let it tank/die "whenever it does" since the PC says his God just allows it...

He did worship some evil god i think, but is that Ok? I think no.

I was shocked IC and OOC. Bu gave him an earful (for whatever THAT's worth ). Not flaming another player's RP/opinion if they thought it reasonable I guess, as more than one other has disagreed with my playstyle. (but personally, I would have cleared something like that with a DM first though, and i doubt it would be accepted, but again i could be wrong).

...Don't bother with year-and-a-day fluff, or mega Xp loss possibilities, which might be why people flip out if the critter they leave unattended or insufficiently protected gets bashed apart.

The year-and-a-day fluff... is the RP point!

The XP loss, and flipping out is point-in-fact the punishment FOR leaving your familiar/or/AC unattended or insufficiently protected!!

....ATTEND! .......PROTECT!! .......or pay the price.


When in doubt, don't have it out,

If it does die, don't you cry.


--G out




*(and 99% CvC back up of course )

[Ithildur]

Interesting discussion certainly, but my main point was very simple; a little bit of thought (what would be IC) and consideration (what effect will this have on the player and PC now and long term) is what I'm suggesting, not a call for revamp of the system (although if feasible anything would be an improvement).

The most blunt, obvious example is 'hey, your ornery barbarian doesn't like weasels, but do you really feel it enhances our experience if you walk up to it and smash it like a dumb, non responsive object while the PC/player is otherwise engaged?'

A rather less clear example is 'DM's have the right to overrule many things in the interest of the story, but perhaps F5 ganking ACs or familiars (or PCs for that matter) out of the blue just because it's out in a dangerous area with no rolls, no chance to respond ought to be done judiciously'

Again, I think it's a reasonable line of thought. Bottom line of my thinking was: we try and treat PCs and NPCs like responsive, living creatures; treating AC's and familiars differently is inconsistent with hardcore RP, whether someone's abusing their AC as a meatshield (which they'd get all kinds of flack for) or walking up to a familiar and ganking them.

Merry Christmas!

[Blindhamsterman]

Gala, you know that by the rules a druid/ranger need only wait 24 ic hours to get a new animal companion, and they are neither summoned nor granted via a deity, but simply a normal unintelligent animal that the druid/ranger has befriended. It doesn't understand more than a few basic commands (3 to 9 tricks for a int 1 to 3 companion). And its completely incapable of communicating with the druid/ranger (beyond what handle animal, wild empathy or a speak with animals spell provide). High level druid companions simply know more tricks and get tougher, but they're no more intelligent than normal.

That of course does not mean the druid/ranger shouldn't love their companion, infact I'd expect a goodly one to care deeply for their companion, and visa versa. An evil one by contrast would be perfectly legit to just go find a new companion and not be especially bothered about the last one getting deaded.

By comparison, a familiar is not an animal, but a magical beast, it may have once been an animal but by becoming a familiar it gains unnatural intelligence (base of 6 - meaning that its only marginally less intelligent than a half orc. The highest level wizard in Alfa has a familiar that is as intelligent as the average human, can communicate verbally with its master. A raven that knows common could communicate verbally with anyone holding a conversation on par with the average human, elf etc. The master is also literally able to sense their familiar, get an idea of where they are and feel their feelings. Due to the above, the death of a familiar (which is different to most homonculous) is always, without fail a traumatic experience for a wizard/sorcerer, this is demonstrated by removing a reasonable amount of xp from the master and requiring the master wait a year and a day before attaining a new one.

That of course does not mean a wizard/sorcerer will love their familiar, but a goodly one most certainly will. An evil one might consider it a tool but is likely to be no less affected should the familiar die.


The above is rules, the distinction between a familiar and animal companion is quite large, that being said the excellent roc 'arcane hierophant' allows a druid/wizard to count their animal companion as a familiar, meaning they get all the positives of both i.e. an eventually highly intelligent wolf familiar that literally speaks to it's master.

[Castano]

I kind of think Cast's suggestion is in the theme of what you see is what you get... if it only takes a level up or an 8 hour penalty to CON or whatever to "reset" familiars, then so be it. Don't bother with year-and-a-day fluff, or mega Xp loss possibilities, which might be why people flip out if the critter they leave unattended or insufficiently protected gets bashed apart.

That leaves the player free to RP the familiar was wounded/knocked out etc. I'd like to have my familiar along for the walks too w/o living in abject fear it will bum rush an orc.

[Ithildur]

I kind of think Cast's suggestion is in the theme of what you see is what you get... if it only takes a level up or an 8 hour penalty to CON or whatever to "reset" familiars, then so be it. Don't bother with year-and-a-day fluff, or mega Xp loss possibilities, which might be why people flip out if the critter they leave unattended or insufficiently protected gets bashed apart.

That leaves the player free to RP the familiar was wounded/knocked out etc. I'd like to have my familiar along for the walks too w/o living in abject fear it will bum rush an orc.

Use the command 'stand your ground' and it won't attack anything; it won't move for that matter while doing that, but it's far safer than attacking hostiles.

[Galadorn]

BHM, yes sir you are correct, I stand corrected. The arcane bond between wizards/sorcerers and their familiars really is VERY Strong, and with your explanation which i agree fully with, i do stand with you in that actually the bond with the arcane familiars really IS physically and magically stronger than druids/rangers' in fact.

I do feel the "bond" formed between a druid/ranger and his/her Animal companion is a very strong one, and more than just say in comparison to "a pet"... , or I like to RP it that way anyway to further show how much my opinion is strong about how druids/rangers should protect them, and never use them like fodder. cool.

w00t

[Blindhamsterman]

I agree in the case of good and probably neutral druids Gala but can't fault evil players not role playing as such.

[kid]

Would not think evils could do that either. But maybe *Shrugs*
I kinda think a drood AC is not a trained pat, nor an automated robot,
And while it does not have human in intelect it is still a wild beast with a will of its own.
Misstreat it and it might turn on you like any wild beast should.
So evil or not treating a companion too as something iralevant seems wrong to me.

[Adanu]

Would not think evils could do that either. But maybe *Shrugs*
I kinda think a drood AC is not a trained pat, nor an automated robot,
And while it does not have human in intelect it is still a wild beast with a will of its own.
Misstreat it and it might turn on you like any wild beast should.
So evil or not treating a companion too as something iralevant seems wrong to me.

Untrue. Animal Companions are bound by ritual and magic to their 'Master'. They are, however, treated as friends by most druids. Evil Druids would most likely treat them as slaves.

[kid]

"This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.

A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer..."

Yes, there's a ceremony. in no where it says that that ceremony takes away the animals will or makes it into a robot.
its a wild animal typical to its kind.
it has its own will and its loyal.
but same as any creature, if you misstreat it it may bite.

Unless you have a specific link to show me otherwise. RPing it as something the MUST obey you as if its an extansion of yourself, or as if it is a robot seems foolish to me. however... to each his own. *Shrugs*

[Adanu]

"This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.

A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a druid advances in level, the animal’s power increases as shown on the table. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer..."

Yes, there's a ceremony. in no where it says that that ceremony takes away the animals will or makes it into a robot.
its a wild animal typical to its kind.
it has its own will and its loyal.
but same as any creature, if you misstreat it it may bite.

Unless you have a specific link to show me otherwise. RPing it as something the MUST obey you as if its an extansion of yourself, or as if it is a robot seems foolish to me. however... to each his own. *Shrugs*

I never said that druids RP it as if they must obey you or like a familiar.

[kid]

never said that. all I said is while loyal its still a typical animal.
you annoy it enough it may run or maul you a little. (even if it might come back later)
So if you wanna be an abusive druid/ranger you should likely take that into account. (again - as you like - to each his own)

[Blindhamsterman]

Evil druid may well control their companion through fear is what adanu is getting at I think.

[kid]

Evil druid may well control their companion through fear is what adanu is getting at I think.

Yeah, tottaly got that and its perfectly understandable.
Does not change the fact that the when you scare a bear he might bite you.
So you should take that under accout with your RP. *Shrugs*
But again to each his own.

[Ithildur]

AC's turning against their masters is akin, imo, to a cleric's god not granting spells; it's part of a class feature that is normally assumed to be under the player's domain. There's a completely separate set of rules for handling non AC animals, training animals, etc.

An AC bear mauling a druid just for 'annoying it' it is beyond silly.

However if a cleric abuses the dogma of the god enough, or the druid/ranger goes around mass murdering animals, is utterly neglectful or abuse to the AC etc, then DMs certainly have the right to intervene and take away/hamper certain class features for the sake of good RP/storytelling especially in a place like ALFA. Just be mindful of doing it willy nilly; a druid's bond/influence on his AC isn't the same as with an average RL pet dog; that should be incredibly obvious unless someone wants to be a jerk about this, sheesh.

All this discussion (really, no surprise to me that many are passionate about this) underlines the point that they should not be treated as inanimate objects in a hardcore RP setting.