Potions are que expensive.

[ElCadaver]

In Pools of Radiance a CLW from the temple was 100gp, and good luck even trying to buy a potion!!

Suck it up, little babies.

[Castano]

CLW items like rings are available in shops. Put a ring on it.

[Zelknolf]

Na, Keryn. The point was our wealth levels are met. roughly.

Our actual data suggests that the majority of ALFA characters do not get the wealth recommended by standards.

Perfectly reasonable to say there are (and should be) fluctuations, but when taken as a large dataset, we tell people that there should be more money than there is.

[t-ice]

This is still Dungeons and Dragons, and just like Heero said, some folks do enjoy playing it. Combat is part of the game, we can't just enforce things on one side. And it seems the opinion of many is the same... play with the DM, then run to the statics to recover the losses... Something is wrong here.

We create static mechanisms to reward the players when the DM is not around, and when the DM is around, the rewards are inferior, to the point you end up losing. Doesn't make sense to me. Playing this game is not a walk in the desert, its not torture, its not to see who is faithful the a server. Its about having fun playing the game.

I do think there's a strong positive correlation between DM time (as measured by percentage of xp gained from DM) and wealth (as measure by percentage of PC wealth to the "target average wealth" in the gp/xp table). So more DMage means more wealth, usually. What comes to mind of your high-level experience Keryn is that the richest, highest level PC will see things skewed. Our gameplay would be far off whack if that PC would have continued to keep on seeing exponential gains. (And I do think this applies to Adanu pretty much the same)

Which leads us to another issue with DMage. The DM will strive to challenge the PCs, and challenge means using the means at your disposal. So the pitfall is that the more consumables you have, the more consumables you end up using. And if you don't have them, the DM will have to adapt so that you don't need them. If a med-to-high level party is virtually zero on "adventuring basics", like basic healing potions, forcing them to retreat and come back better equipped might be better DMage than forcing the plot to press on.

It comes back to DMage. It's not good DMage to always allow your party to turn the same xp-appropriate incremental gain in wealth in every session, no matter what they do. And it's not good DMage to always attrition PCs to the point that they spend more on consumables than they get in rewards. But odds are at the end of the day you will meet your wealth target far better with a DM than without. Not to mention get cooler stuff. Because the DM thinks cool items are cool, too.

Yet there's another thing it does come back to: To the players who focus on wealth and items and combat efficiency, who rate DM events by the amount gp and wealth rewarded, no amount of items and wealth is ever enough. Theirs are also the PCs with the highest wealth, because they focus on that more than others, and as a consequence they will see far less rewards from DMs, to the point of losses, because the DMs are actively at work leveling the playing field. And so, bizarrely from the DM perspective, those who complain the most about wealth are typically those with the highest wealth. (AND, do recall that our wealth standards are higher than DnD as designed.)

Our actual data suggests that the majority of ALFA characters do not get the wealth recommended by standards.

Majority of ALFA PCs don't get DMd enough, yeah. But the answer is not to give large amounts of wealth without DMage, because that removes space and point for DMs to work with, likely leading to less DMage. The story seems to be that people who care about wealth can pretty well keep up with the curve by gaming statics so. Most people just don't, leaving themselves open for DMs to slap them with stuff, but don't see that much DMage. So giving more wealth from non-DMd content will likely only give more to the already wealthy, wealth-and-combat-focused players Keryn refers to. Not improving the median much, but affecting the average by giving more to those who already have. Which is certainly not an improvement to the overall playing field.

[Adanu]

This is still Dungeons and Dragons, and just like Heero said, some folks do enjoy playing it. Combat is part of the game, we can't just enforce things on one side. And it seems the opinion of many is the same... play with the DM, then run to the statics to recover the losses... Something is wrong here.

We create static mechanisms to reward the players when the DM is not around, and when the DM is around, the rewards are inferior, to the point you end up losing. Doesn't make sense to me. Playing this game is not a walk in the desert, its not torture, its not to see who is faithful the a server. Its about having fun playing the game.

I do think there's a strong positive correlation between DM time (as measured by percentage of xp gained from DM) and wealth (as measure by percentage of PC wealth to the "target average wealth" in the gp/xp table). So more DMage means more wealth, usually. What comes to mind of your high-level experience Keryn is that the richest, highest level PC will see things skewed. Our gameplay would be far off whack if that PC would have continued to keep on seeing exponential gains. (And I do think this applies to Adanu pretty much the same)

Which leads us to another issue with DMage. The DM will strive to challenge the PCs, and challenge means using the means at your disposal. So the pitfall is that the more consumables you have, the more consumables you end up using. And if you don't have them, the DM will have to adapt so that you don't need them. If a med-to-high level party is virtually zero on "adventuring basics", like basic healing potions, forcing them to retreat and come back better equipped might be better DMage than forcing the plot to press on.

It comes back to DMage. It's not good DMage to always allow your party to turn the same xp-appropriate incremental gain in wealth in every session, no matter what they do. And it's not good DMage to always attrition PCs to the point that they spend more on consumables than they get in rewards. But odds are at the end of the day you will meet your wealth target far better with a DM than without. Not to mention get cooler stuff. Because the DM thinks cool items are cool, too.

Yet there's another thing it does come back to: To the players who focus on wealth and items and combat efficiency, who rate DM events by the amount gp and wealth rewarded, no amount of items and wealth is ever enough. Theirs are also the PCs with the highest wealth, because they focus on that more than others, and as a consequence they will see far less rewards from DMs, to the point of losses, because the DMs are actively at work leveling the playing field. And so, bizarrely from the DM perspective, those who complain the most about wealth are typically those with the highest wealth. (AND, do recall that our wealth standards are higher than DnD as designed.)

Our actual data suggests that the majority of ALFA characters do not get the wealth recommended by standards.

Majority of ALFA PCs don't get DMd enough, yeah. But the answer is not to give large amounts of wealth without DMage, because that removes space and point for DMs to work with, likely leading to less DMage. The story seems to be that people who care about wealth can pretty well keep up with the curve by gaming statics so. Most people just don't, leaving themselves open for DMs to slap them with stuff, but don't see that much DMage. So giving more wealth from non-DMd content will likely only give more to the already wealthy, wealth-and-combat-focused players Keryn refers to. Not improving the median much, but affecting the average by giving more to those who already have. Which is certainly not an improvement to the overall playing field.

I have roughly average wealth, maybe a bit lower. I am by no means incredibly wealthy. I already explained my experience elsewhere, but I will do so here too.

In the year (and a half?) I've played here, I've only see one DM consistently use standards wealth well, and not be afraid to drop good items. Keep in mind that I love a good plot... but combat is a fact of life in FR and ALFA, especially for a PC like mine. I 'focus' on items and combat efficiency because that is what my PC is designed for primarily. I want a mix of good plot and decent loot, not either or.

[t-ice]

In the year (and a half?) I've played here, I've only see one DM consistently use standards wealth well, and not be afraid to drop good items.

I'm confused by your apparent sureness in single-handedly evaluating DMs use of loot. What do you think defines "well used wealth", and what is not?

Also there's the judgement call on whether to give wealth on drops, or to use other methods, such as a quest-giver bounty, to do the rewards. Personally I tend to avoid drops, because that implies to players that combat is a must and a positive to be sought, whereas most plausible personalities would risk themselves in combat as a last resort to achieving a goal. Somehow I'm sniffing a notion that more consumables should be dropped as loot by DMs as they are used - gold is only to be used for permanent items?

[Adanu]

whereas most plausible personalities would risk themselves in combat as a last resort to achieving a goal.

I just want to get this out of the way first.... you trying to imply that combat minded PCs are worthless with this, or am I reading that wrong?

[t-ice]

I just want to get this out of the way first.... you trying to imply that combat minded PCs are worthless with this, or am I reading that wrong?

I'm saying it's wrong if players think that the only way to get wealth on a quest is by killing things. Because that makes killing the preferable answer to everything. Whereas to me it's at least as interesting to play finding a more inventive way to reach your goal. Like, say, intimidation, sneaking, negotiating, lying, diversion and so forth. There's a big step from combat not being more valuable than other means to combat being worthless.

[Adanu]

I just want to get this out of the way first.... you trying to imply that combat minded PCs are worthless with this, or am I reading that wrong?

I'm saying it's wrong if players think that the only way to get wealth on a quest is by killing things. Because that makes killing the preferable answer to everything. Whereas to me it's at least as interesting to play finding a more inventive way to reach your goal. Like, say, intimidation, sneaking, negotiating, lying, diversion and so forth. There's a big step from combat not being more valuable than other means to combat being worthless.

Ok, I can understand that. The way you worded it made it a bit vague for me.

ANd I disagree.

PCs will be what they are, and how they are. Telling the barbarian who likes swords and axes that violence is not an answer is akin to telling wizards that spells aren't really an answer. Sure, you have skills... but if the PC in question uses them situationally at best? YOu can certainly make situations where skills would be used by most PCs... but railroading can backfire. My PC is a mercenary, bounty hunter, apprentice wizard, and a warrior that likes a good fight. Trying to force him to be something he is not would only make him step back and leave.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying PCs can and should be stubborn.... but if you want to push a PC into doing something that their personality and background suggests they would not do, don't be surprised when they just don't bother responding.

[Keryn]

T-ice, you and many people in these boards have this tendency to think everything posted is a complain, and refers alone to the situation of the poster.

What I was saying was not a complain regarding my situation. If anything I never had reasons to complain about wealth. I'm here discussing ALFA, how things are perceived by the players, and how that affects them.

What we were discussing is far more complex, and seems to me you are not seeing the whole picture. The examples I described were based in what I saw happening to other toons. My toon could end up a plot and lose gold... I'd shrug and move on. But then I hear my whole party cheering the DM for an amazing story, and as he leaves. I also hear everyone complain that like this no one will be able to keep joining the sessions without having a suicidal feeling about it. Yes folks can be cynical like that, because we know the DMs need to feel loved and motivated to DM, and open critic is most of the times seen wrongly, and makes people not want to DM, shouldn't be like that, but its how it is...

With the Nwn2 its easy for a DM to feel the urge to spawn some extra critters, after a group dealing easily with an encounter (which doesn't mean the CR was not properly set, nor that the encounter was not hard, sometimes just means the group worked well together) suddenly some more critters rain out of the blue forcing the toons to enter more combat. If in the end, session after session, all that the players get are ridiculously low rewards, despite having fought more then 100 critters, which obviously meant they had to use consumables, what options are left for our players? (Once again in DnD you can be rest happy most of the times, here you suck it up and wait 24h IG, obviously you consume more potions etc... in nwn2). This DM is pushing the players to go find that gold elsewhere, so that they can be prepared for the next session. -> Go farm statics! Is the message passed to our players, bacause thats the only way they can come up with the gold to face those losses and be prepared for next session!

Healing is expensive, and I'll keep saying. If you finish that same session and reward 400 gp, when the toons had to use 4/5 potions worth 1500+ gp, they are already losing, so why don't DMs reward on top of those 400gp some consumables? In the end they will be consumed.... And I doubt folks will sell healing potions to make a profit. Well if they do and then they die, because they lacked the healing its their problem. Though I don't see folks doing that.

And to a point I have to agree once again with Adanu. Not everyone plays a Bard with high wisdom and char, and high diplomacy to feel like solving things diplomatically. This game has combat as a great part of it, folks do like to squash somethings, which doesn't mean the story doesn't have puzzles to be solved, riddles, and some situations have to be solved resorting to non-combat situations. Though I don't play DnD to live a second virtual life, this ain't the Sims... :S Logging IG to sit in a tavern, trying to make up conversation, can be fun once or twice, but for that I actually go out with friends and have a real beer, and talk about real things, ALFA is not a social server.

The way the game mechanics rolls is simple. You play, you gain XP and gold. XP makes your PC stronger, gold allows him to be better equiped, so that he can face harder things, which in turn allows him to get more XP, and more gold. The problem seems to be that some folks want to fight the very game we play... Instead of playing it.

Its my humble opinion.

[t-ice]

Yes, Keryn, it's a good point that DMs shouldn't consistently drain PCs of resources, and I've already said I agree. Or if consumables are drained, something should be given in return - perhaps it's something that isn't readily apparent though, like goodwill of a faction that the PC can leverage to have them make/source some choise item(s) for you. Sometimes the DM expects IC player initiative on stuff like that. (And sometimes it simply is a poor side of a DM, I suppose)

Sometimes it might be differing opinions on what constitues joining the sessions without having a suicidal feeling about it. Maybe the player feels it suicidial if he has less than 50 healing potions, and the DM feels he can't challenge a PC with such a mountain of pots, so he needs to attrition her down first. But it can simply be the DM not being aware and not keeping a running tab of expenses while swords swing and spells fly. The new wealth checkup tool can greatly help in this, because it keeps a tab on aggregate wealth.

[Keryn]

Yes, Keryn, it's a good point that DMs shouldn't consistently drain PCs of resources, and I've already said I agree. Or if consumables are drained, something should be given in return - perhaps it's something that isn't readily apparent though, like goodwill of a faction that the PC can leverage to have them make/source some choise item(s) for you. Sometimes the DM expects IC player initiative on stuff like that. (And sometimes it simply is a poor side of a DM, I suppose)

Sometimes it might be differing opinions on what constitues joining the sessions without having a suicidal feeling about it. Maybe the player feels it suicidial if he has less than 50 healing potions, and the DM feels he can't challenge a PC with such a mountain of pots, so he needs to attrition her down first. But it can simply be the DM not being aware and not keeping a running tab of expenses while swords swing and spells fly. The new wealth checkup tool can greatly help in this, because it keeps a tab on aggregate wealth.

I totally agree T-ice!!!

There needs to be a balance, we cannot have drained toons, nor folks with 50 potions. I cannot speak about that, because I have not DMed in a long time here in ALFA, so I can't see other folks inventories. But with the price of potions having too many also means you need to cut on items you use, to keep wealth at an average value. But I've been surprised too many times to try to make a logic assumption out of it

[Zelknolf]

Our actual data suggests that the majority of ALFA characters do not get the wealth recommended by standards.

Majority of ALFA PCs don't get DMd enough, yeah. But the answer is not to give large amounts of wealth without DMage, because that removes space and point for DMs to work with, likely leading to less DMage. The story seems to be that people who care about wealth can pretty well keep up with the curve by gaming statics so. Most people just don't, leaving themselves open for DMs to slap them with stuff, but don't see that much DMage. So giving more wealth from non-DMd content will likely only give more to the already wealthy, wealth-and-combat-focused players Keryn refers to. Not improving the median much, but affecting the average by giving more to those who already have. Which is certainly not an improvement to the overall playing field.

The point of that mention is that the story doesn't match the data-- and the suggestion is that effort to keep up with wealth doesn't actually correlate to proper wealth levels. Of course, I'm not about to claim that we should just blanket double our loot drops across ALFA or anything like that; we'd break about 20% of our player population in the process (while fixing... probably another 20%, being those who are keen on wealth but don't achieve it currently-- much chaos for no net gain; bad plan sounds bad). I argument I've made for the past few years is that static content and scripted systems should correct for whatever the DMs do or don't do-- that the DMs should be able to drop whatever they think makes sense, or whatever's important for the plot, and the rest of the world should subtley conspire to push people toward where they 'belong' -- it's pretty meta-ey, but honestly so are wealth standards and character levels, and I think it in all is a consequence of our choosing our particular rules system (where our fantastic magical gear is treated as mundane and is assumed present by all calculations of challenge).

[t-ice]

The point of that mention is that the story doesn't match the data-- and the suggestion is that effort to keep up with wealth doesn't actually correlate to proper wealth levels.

Can you elaborate? You mean wealth percentage compared to table value correlates negatively with percentage of xp that came from DMs?

argument I've made for the past few years is that static content and scripted systems should correct for whatever the DMs do or don't do-- that the DMs should be able to drop whatever they think makes sense, or whatever's important for the plot, and the rest of the world should subtley conspire to push people toward where they 'belong' -- it's pretty meta-ey

Right now it sorta works the opposite, doesn't it? Statics give a constant amount, it's only the DMs that read wealth levels before giving wealth, and DMs are the only force that "conspires to push PCs towards target".

I suppose loot drops could in some way read PC wealth levels before issuing something? Though guess that means awarding each PC separately and directly, rather than leaving items lying on the ground for a party to sort out. I'm not a big fan of the idea, as it just sounds like a way to make a DM more pointless in the game, and thus lead to less DMing. But long as loot drops still leave room for DMs to give wealth for when a PC does get DMd (so static target wealth might be something like 75% of DM target wealth), I suppose it could be a good thing and lead to people playing without a DM on - which likely leads to more DMing eventually. Also it might be a way to cull wealth rewards from the most dedicated grindings, though maybe that is theoretical (even if you gain 0xp for killing below-your-level things, you still get gp, but not sure if anyone actually bothers with 0xp spawns).

However if DMs rely on the scripts to keep their PCs wealth, it could lead to worsening of what Keryn said about needing to grind statics to get the resources to take part in DM sessions.
Or vice versa, a shrewd player could multiply his PCs power by consumable-machine-gunnery on DM events, if he knew he can easily recover the wealth from statics afterwards.

[Keryn]

Our actual data suggests that the majority of ALFA characters do not get the wealth recommended by standards.

Majority of ALFA PCs don't get DMd enough, yeah. But the answer is not to give large amounts of wealth without DMage, because that removes space and point for DMs to work with, likely leading to less DMage. The story seems to be that people who care about wealth can pretty well keep up with the curve by gaming statics so. Most people just don't, leaving themselves open for DMs to slap them with stuff, but don't see that much DMage. So giving more wealth from non-DMd content will likely only give more to the already wealthy, wealth-and-combat-focused players Keryn refers to. Not improving the median much, but affecting the average by giving more to those who already have. Which is certainly not an improvement to the overall playing field.

The point of that mention is that the story doesn't match the data-- and the suggestion is that effort to keep up with wealth doesn't actually correlate to proper wealth levels. Of course, I'm not about to claim that we should just blanket double our loot drops across ALFA or anything like that; we'd break about 20% of our player population in the process (while fixing... probably another 20%, being those who are keen on wealth but don't achieve it currently-- much chaos for no net gain; bad plan sounds bad). I argument I've made for the past few years is that static content and scripted systems should correct for whatever the DMs do or don't do-- that the DMs should be able to drop whatever they think makes sense, or whatever's important for the plot, and the rest of the world should subtley conspire to push people toward where they 'belong' -- it's pretty meta-ey, but honestly so are wealth standards and character levels, and I think it in all is a consequence of our choosing our particular rules system (where our fantastic magical gear is treated as mundane and is assumed present by all calculations of challenge).

THIS is interesting!!!!

By T-ice
However if DMs rely on the scripts to keep their PCs wealth, it could lead to worsening of what Keryn said about needing to grind statics to get the resources to take part in DM sessions.
Or vice versa, a shrewd player could multiply his PCs power by consumable-machine-gunnery on DM events, if he knew he can easily recover the wealth from statics afterwards.