Evil character tolerance?

[darugith]

I decided to write this thread to pose a question to the DMs, ADMIN, and players of ALFA. Is ALFA really tolerant of a players creating and RPing evil characters?

The discussion I would like to see as a result of this letter is one of open honesty. Most people will not admit their prejudices openly, but I really feel it is warranted at this time in ALFA.

First of all, it is a game, so those of us who play do so for leisure time. This also means we could be watching a movie, or anything else for that matter. I think this needs to be discussed because if a person spends their time, in an environment that does not welcome seedier characters, then it is unfair to that person and their time is wasted unnecessarily by all of us not being honest about our “gaming club” in the first place.

I don’t want to seem like the poster child for evil, or bad behavior, and in RL I am definitely not that person. For years I DMed a group of players on the tabletop who’s group re-rolled many times and played everything from LG to CE characters. My personal observations were that it takes a little more work for a DM to run an evil group than a good one. I do feel there is and always has been, an undercurrent that frowns on, or outright persecutes those that would be a little different in our game. I have always RPed to the best of my abilities, since 2004 (actually it was before that when ALFA was still BETA) when I joined, and there have only been half-dozen or so DMs who I have found who would create adventures for an evil character. As bad as this may sound, and at the risk of this being my demise in ALFA, I will say there have been twice that many who’s mission it seems has been to rid our gaming environment of the evil characters. Strong statement? If you have not tried to play one yourself, do so and you might notice the change in attitudes, etc.

I know that our intent is to welcome players to ALFA, and let them make their own decisions about what they roll for their characters. We have all kinds of choices to make during creation, both “good” and “bad”. In no way do I want to see a server full of player killers, or ruin the game for anyone who wants to play on the side of light. I have known and played with many of you over the last few years, and my challenge to those of you who know me, and to those that don’t, is to put your true feelings on this matter for us all to see. If there is a consensus to let the DMs play all of the “baddies”, then I think that should be stated in our rules, or in any event state it is discouraged.

On a lighter note, I want to publicly give props to Rotku, Markelos, Muse, Voran, Cast No Shadow, and Ronan, for making my experiences in ALFA some of the best RP I have ever had. You guys all get it and I thank you. Also props to the builders and admin for the tens of thousands of hours sacrificed by them to create the environment we play in.

[kid]

didnt even read the whole as it doesnt really matter.
we had that debate a million times.

as a DM i dont mind if you wanna be a good or a bad toon.
it only matters when you go hellameta and start hunting ppl from the opposite
alingment (good or bad) for reason that you would not hunt any other NPC
on the server.

so if you wanna play evil. go for it. dont flaunt it as most autorties would dislike it.
(dependes of what sort of evil and where)
and dont go hunting all the good PC around.
you have plently of NPCs and other RP means to get it out of your evil system.

as long as good vs evil doesnt nesseraly mean "I want to CvC people cause thats what I love" I doubt anyone would have a problem with an evil toon.

by the way just to be clear, same goes for goody toons.

[darugith]

I appreciate your comments. Your approach seems reasonable and fair enough kid. I only rehash old ground if the problems don't seem to go away, and in MHO they are still around. I am not trying to create a problem for anyone, or bore anyone...this could have been discussed many times but I didn't see any of it and we have a lot of new people since I have played, both DMs and players.

[johnlewismcleod]

What kid said.

I played evil for a few years and I think their are even a few players about that remember some of my nasty PC's (one or two actually even lived for a while before being hung).

I do have some thoughts on evil and freely admit that the ALFA system has instituted some restrictions that limit evil somewhat, but having played on a server that nearly got over-run by evil (I was one of the evil's and it got so I really felt bad about the negative impact it seemed to be having), I think the ALFA system is good (not perfect, of course ).

Banditry against PC's by PC's just isn't really supported. This might seem a problem, but take my word on it...the difficulties involved in keeping IC and avoiding meta while playing a PC vs PC bandit is just too difficult. If you want to play a thug/bandit you will have to be satisfied with NPC victims, but still be happily prepared for PC's to come after your NPC thumper when they learn about it IC.

Sleight of hand isn't supported between PC's without DM oversight either, if I recall, nor do NPC's have anything to nip unless a DM makes it possible.

Having said that, however, evil is supported by most DM's, including me, with the caveat that we're here to have fun also...and mediating "who did what to who, where, and when" and log surfing to sort out PvP is definitely not fun.

My advice for players of evil is to go into it knowing that your PC will most likely come to a bad end and make peace with that fact before starting.

Also any player who wants to play evil should be personally lawful good. Cheating is bad for any player, but if an evil cheats it's even worse. No meta, no using game mechanics to advantage.

Playing evil requires the absolute highest standards for RP, if you're not ready to be held to a higher standard than the rest...stick with good IMO.

[Burt]

Hey darugith!

[dergon darkhelm]

Evil is only supported so long as it is "in the closet" so to speak.

Open evil will quickly come to the attention of good aligned PCs who will root it out.

Only on Skaug, a small corner of the Moonshaes server, will you be able to play an open Velsharoonie or something blatantly evil like that with no fear of repurcussions. ( which reminds me...... PLEASE OPEN SKULLPORT )

I've been on both sides in ALFA, Shar faction in NWN1 then playing a dogmatic Helmite in NWN2. The conflict can bring intense high-quality RP but, sadly, more often brings griefing and OOC drama.

If you plan a Cyrcist in the open, expect the PC Tormite paladin to go hostile and come for you with every friend (and the local authorities too) to kill you.

That said, both the Banites and the Cult of Auril had flourishing and successful factions for years in NWN2.

In summary, keep your evil in the closet or expect CvC.

[darugith]

Hi Burtimus!

I am glad the diaries and comments are rolling. They are not exactly the same, but echo the experiences I have had in general. Keep them comming, it is great to see, and hopefully will promote a better understanding and eliminate some hard feelings that could arise in the future .Bravo to the brave among you.)


I guess the Highwayman character is out. jk

[Ksiel]

One other thing to keep in mind, is the affect of playing some of the more evil aligned races have on our DM's. For example, drow on BG. A DM would have to follow you around the entire time to make the npc's act accordingly.

We simply don't have the resources in this regard.

As far as playing evil, plenty of players have played with varying degrees of success. I played a cleric of Talos early on. He was trying to start a band of robbers. I never once entered a civilized area, and even robbed a PC and didn't have to kill him to do so. PMed him what I was doing, we rped it out, we made some rolls, I aced an intimidate roll... .

So all that said, when making an evil aligned pc do so with the regard that DM's won't be able to change the environment for you ALL the time. Don't make a pc so evil that there is no chance to even RP out any other option other than "I have to kill EVERYTHING..."

[oldgrayrogue]

I played evil on ALFA for over 2 years and had a blast. I will be honest, its not easy but certainly can be done. It takes patience and quite a bit of DM attention. That said, there are a lot of opportunities to play an evil PC, both in terms of DMd and static content. I retired my most successful evil PC at level 9. I know I am not the only one. So it can be done and be fun.

However, playing evil takes a special temperment as a player IMO. You have to understand and accept up front that other PCs and NPCs may be out to get you and that your PC may end up jailed, hanged etc if "found out." The trade off is that you get to do all kinds of evil nasty stuff =) If you can't deal with that possibility going in, then you probably should not play an evil PC.

[Castano]

I think you should need an IC conflict with a PC, not a faction conflict, to alow CvC.

There's too much you are a member of X group therefore I must kill you going around. It's a bit of a departure from how we have done things, but I think it's needed.

For one thing...if you are a killer, please kill NPC victims..remember you have about 5000 NPC choices per PC according to the town populations - I know we do not spawn every NPC in town due to tech limits, but they are there, and there are plenty of commoners to hunt w/ a DM (yes there is a tech issue with hunting commoners- that is the server faction will alert all commoners in the area to stomp on you - but that is a techincal issue not some alfa rule.

Same goes for goodly PCs, we need to end the hunts of the evil groups, unless said evil group is really doing something world damaging on the same scale as the NPC evil groups that are all over the place. Some random cult hanging out in some random area dancing to evil pagan rites hardly qualifies..if they are plotting to blow the city up - then yes hunt away.

Ganking random players on a road is never allowed.

[CloudDancing]

I'd really like to pause here and offer my view, something I shared with another player last night.

Ask yourself "How would this character fit in a table-top Dungeons and Dragon's game?"

You know everyone around the table. You know the dms. You know that at a certain time on a certain day you will be playing with these same people around the table.

It's a constant struggle then to balance the "What *I* want" vs "What is best for my gaming group?"

But we have lots of different groups! And we had some dm's that supported evil RP groups. But we lost them to various real life problems. So applying to be a DM is a good idea to help support this RP and avoid one dm being mobbed by so many players and forced to choose.

[Ronan]

Regular "I'm an asshole and will do anything for gold/my faith/power/etc. is 'tolerated' and supported just fine in ALFA. We have a number of PCs like this on BG (diet evils).

The proactive "hey, the orphanage attacked me", virgin-sacrificing, baby-eating evil is not, chiefly because it does demand more DM attention. If you play a PC like this and are good at hiding it, it can work.

I try to make plots all alignments can participate in, but in practice the goodies generally seem to do more. I think this is mostly because they play more often (which also tends to make them more powerful). If anyone has tips on how I can DM all alignments at once more effectively, I'm all ears.

[Heero]

I think you should need an IC conflict with a PC, not a faction conflict, to alow CvC.

This is very true. Both sides - evil and good - shouldnt really be focusing on that 1 PCs over the entire faction of NPCs of opposite alignment/deity that are out and about, but the fact of the matter is that those NPCs of opposite alignment arent true living, breathing, inhabitants of the world save during infrequent possession of a DM; whereas that Sharran, Malarite, Talosian (is this what a worshipper of Talos is called?), or Velsharoonite PC is normally in constant contact with that Selunite, Kelemnvorite, or whatever as not being so IG means that RP and DM time is going to be near nonexistent hiding out on their own.

True evil characters, not the 'Im a bastard and Ill do anything for coin' types, are very tough to play in ALFA. That Sharran or Malarite of yours is going to constantly be in contact with good-aligned PCs, many of which are going to be high(er) level PCs as, lets face it, most of high levels seem to be of the good persuasion. In order to get DM time or plots you are going to find yourself grouping with those good PCs. You simply cannot play the antagonist - which, I think, is the reason may of us enjoy playing evil characters - amongst groups of goodly PCs; it just doesnt work - I know, Ive tried. While it may be silly that these good PCs are focusing their investigations or hostility towards your lone evil PC rather tham the entire faction of evils out running amok, these PCs are interacting with your PC constantly rather than once a month or however often a DM decides to run a plot involving this faction. It sucks for the evil PC, but there it is. Playing that secret evil antagonist amongst a server full of goodly heroes is going to be hard, as it should be, though it can be fun and rewarding, Id wager (I wouldnt know as none of mine have ever worked out). Unless you can convince a DM to run an evil game for you and a group of like-minded PCs, there is going to be conflict as DMs often need to run games tailored to the largest number of people over differing alignments or beliefs.

I'd really like to pause here and offer my view, something I shared with another player last night.

Ask yourself "How would this character fit in a table-top Dungeons and Dragon's game?"

You know everyone around the table. You know the dms. You know that at a certain time on a certain day you will be playing with these same people around the table.

It's a constant struggle then to balance the "What *I* want" vs "What is best for my gaming group?"

But we have lots of different groups! And we had some dm's that supported evil RP groups. But we lost them to various real life problems. So applying to be a DM is a good idea to help support this RP and avoid one dm being mobbed by so many players and forced to choose.

Cloud's advice is very true. It often stinks that the character concept you really want to play is simply not viable, but let me tell you as someone who has not learned this lesson yet that it is a very lonely, frustrating, unfilling experience trying to play that Sharran Drow, or whatever it may be, you really want to play on ALFA.

[Veilan]

I vastly prefer characters that are conducive to the general campaign, which in DnD probably is about treasure-hunting and/or doing good things. Evil may work for this, but when the goal is to actively oppose other players, showcase how much more omg cool or omg smart you are than the other players, or demand / force a lot of DM attention, then perhaps a more classical "adventurer" should be considered as a character.

Evil to me is more rewarding in PnP games, where it also is not such a massive drain on efficiency for the DM.

Usually here in ALFA, the DMs are quite sufficient to provide a challenging opposition...

[Heero]

Also, an ALFA server is a small place. It really is. While one of these regions may be hundreds or even thousands of square miles in canon, an ALFA server is...what...20-40 outdoor areas with a few caves and interiors? The knowledge of ANY evil action witnessed by ANY non-evil PC, or in some instances even as witnessed by NPCs via IC forum chatter and rumors, is going to make its way around the server ICly in no time flat to each and every PC. It just is. Thats how it works. Even if that PC is sitting in an inn in BG (per canon) 150 miles north of your PC in Nashkel, its only 12 IG areas between the two of you and they will know your Sharran did something not nice the next RL day, if not sooner.