cliques in ALFA

[gollumnator]

has anybody run into any negative experiences from encountering cliques during play? Or is it just me?
gollumnator

[rorax]

Yes.


You are not alone, sadly there are bunch of players who think themselves "better" than others and actively blocking access to take part in their activities, with no RP justifications.

Sadly, it seems there is no rule 'against' elitist group of players.


I know from first hand few others besides you(and me) who feel that way, and most likely complain on the same people.


As there is no 'rule' against it and not much can be done, i would suggest fighting 'the enemy' with his own methods. Gather your own group of people you like to play with and keep them out of your circle. Best would be if you will be able to get yourself a dedicated DM , and still keep them out of the group activities activities.

Yes, i know it's not always workable due to timezones issues and such.


Personally, i think that 'elitist' players are one of the worst things that can happen to RP community.

[gribo]

If by cliques, you mean IC groups, then it is ok and understandable.
An evil cyrisist will not be welcome to a group of helmites, at least not with very high bluff and disguise skills.

[Swift]

You are not alone, sadly there are bunch of players who think themselves "better" than others and actively blocking access to take part in their activities, with no RP justifications.

How do you know they have no justifications? They may have very IC justifications for ignoring your character but they are not obligated to tell you.

Sadly, it seems there is no rule 'against' elitist group of players.

Yes, lets all put in a rule saying you are not allowed to play with people of like mine and that you enjoy RPing with. Thats sure to up the quality of our community.

Personally, i think that 'elitist' players are one of the worst things that can happen to RP community.

Define 'elitist'. For many, many years ALFA was considered to be an elitist community as a whole by the wider NWN community, so take that as you will.

[Vendrin]

As selective as ALFA is, there is still a wide variety of play styles and role play styles. It's natural that people tend to gravitate to those they think share the same preferences. If it's really an issue to you either adapt to that groups preferences or form your own group.

[rorax]

How do you know they have no justifications? They may have very IC justifications for ignoring your character but they are not obligated to tell you.
.

I really do not see what is NOT clear in what i wrote before.

To answer you and Gribo:

I CLEARLY mentioned OOC reasons, with NO RP justifications.

And how do i know? when several people(including newbies) complain that with several different characters they get the same cold shoulder from the certain players without any RP reasoning, i tend to believe it's so.


I do not know , and do not care what other people think of ALFA, it does not matter, i am, not from those people who defined themselves according to what others think of them. I think it isn't for ALFA best interest to established itself as "elitist" community.


It's hard to get along here as newbies, they last thing they need is a bunch of players who demand people to "prove" themselves "worthy" to join their RP. It's not the way to welcome new players , and it's not the way for ALFA to grow. Being "eltistic" is receipt to lose some quality players in the long run.




Again, just to be clear AGAIN , i do not(and as i far as i know others too) have any issues with IC cliques, i clearly talk about OOC cliques.

[Brokenbone]

Sometimes difficult to tell an OOC dislike or reason not to game w/ someone from a concealed IC motivation, sometimes faction-based. Played in a very fun thieves' guild campaign for a couple of years, where relationships outside the guild were kind of "surfacey" and unable to form conflicting alliances, well, without being forcefully retired by other guildmates in the sewers (think that only happened to two PCs during my involvement in the campaign).

You'd hope people are capable of being friendly (i.e., an OOC PLAYER thing), but again, that's at best a hope.

[t-ice]

To the simplistic "IC vs OoC" point of view, I dare to offer this longwinded argument, hopefully providing some food for thought, and fresh point of view to the discussion :

The other side of the coin, I would venture a brave guess, is that the people who gravitate towards cliques, do so PC after after PC. The simple and clean distinction to "IC good, OoC bad" becomes more nuanced when you consider that the IC choices are but a vehicle for the player to have fun. The inevitable conclusion is that there are people who simply get pleasure from giving others the virtual finger. Which really shouldn't come as a surprise. And neither does the fact that the targets of this are overwhelmingly new players.

What would be a problem is the spirit of excusing, even appreciating and cheering on, the exclusive asshole as "excellent, hardcore roleplay". When in fact, it's being an asshole that kills gaming and fun. Now being an inclusive asshole, by contrast, is excellent gaming and roleplay. Playing an "abrasive" character so that people are together having fun is a lot harder than playing a bland neutral/goodie. If you can't play one so that you can include other players, then maybe you should consider yourself not good enough to play one. And it can apply equally well to a paladin than a Cyricist. Shouldn't other players and DMs obviously react in kind, and leave alone the isolationist PC or clique who chose to game on their own terms only?

The obvious way to ease a "difficult match" PC meeting is of course engaging the player in tells on friendly terms. You should even be able to brainstorm an excuse to play together. If time and again you find yourself unable, or unwilling, to find an IC way to play with others, especially new players, see above for not being good enough to play an abrasive PC. How's that for elitism

And no, I don't mean every PC must be able to play with every other. And yes, I do think deciding what to run and for whom should ultimately be the DMs prerogative. But if you decide to roll a PC that would just give the finger and shut out all but your choice handful of other PCs, if you chose to have no IC hooks to connect to others, shouldn't you think again why are you playing a multiplayer game in the first place? From an obvious gaming point of view, playing on a module and server of a community should come with a desire to integrate with that community, beyond your choice couple of friends. Else you and your friends can build your own place to game.

[Kemeras]

My only suggestion in regards to situations like this is to try and talk directly with the people that you are having an issue with.

As others have suggested it *may* be IC reasons for the lack of interaction (it may not be either, I am not directly debating whether there are issues or not). It may be something as simple as not knowing each other well enough to get into a good RP grove.

The hardest part of RP interactions is first contact with new players/DMs, if things become awkward it is easier to avoid the situation instead of talking OOC to resolve any misunderstandings.

Written communication (real time or not) still leaves open a large margin for misunderstandings. ALFA has good structures in place to handle disputes and the most important effort anyone can make is to keep the lines of communication open.

Using PM's to get a group of people onto IRC to talk about an issue is a good idea, use the PA to help facilitate setting up a meeting. General this type of issues are built of mutual misunderstandings. I could be something as simple as a RP thread that player is involved in precludes then from interacting with you OR that their style of RP is perceived as coming off as cold and elitist when it is just different.

Learning to interact with each other is a two way street, I do not mean to infer that the responsibility is solely yours. Both sides need to be open to talking about IC issues in a OOC forum when problems arise.




Cheers

[rorax]

To the simplistic "IC vs OoC" point of view, I dare to offer this longwinded argument, hopefully providing some food for thought, and fresh point of view to the discussion :

The other side of the coin, I would venture a brave guess, is that the people who gravitate towards cliques, do so PC after after PC. The simple and clean distinction to "IC good, OoC bad" becomes more nuanced when you consider that the IC choices are but a vehicle for the player to have fun. The inevitable conclusion is that there are people who simply get pleasure from giving others the virtual finger. Which really shouldn't come as a surprise. And neither does the fact that the targets of this are overwhelmingly new players.

What would be a problem is the spirit of excusing, even appreciating and cheering on, the exclusive a**hole as "excellent, hardcore roleplay". When in fact, it's being an a**hole that kills gaming and fun. Now being an inclusive a**hole, by contrast, is excellent gaming and roleplay. Playing an "abrasive" character so that people are together having fun is a lot harder than playing a bland neutral/goodie. If you can't play one so that you can include other players, then maybe you should consider yourself not good enough to play one. And it can apply equally well to a paladin than a Cyricist. Shouldn't other players and DMs obviously react in kind, and leave alone the isolationist PC or clique who chose to game on their own terms only?

The obvious way to ease a "difficult match" PC meeting is of course engaging the player in tells on friendly terms. You should even be able to brainstorm an excuse to play together. If time and again you find yourself unable, or unwilling, to find an IC way to play with others, especially new players, see above for not being good enough to play an abrasive PC. How's that for elitism

And no, I don't mean every PC must be able to play with every other. And yes, I do think deciding what to run and for whom should ultimately be the DMs prerogative. But if you decide to roll a PC that would just give the finger and shut out all but your choice handful of other PCs, if you chose to have no IC hooks to connect to others, shouldn't you think again why are you playing a multiplayer game in the first place? From an obvious gaming point of view, playing on a module and server of a community should come with a desire to integrate with that community, beyond your choice couple of friends. Else you and your friends can build your own place to game.

Thank you T-ice for phrasing it so well.

[dergon darkhelm]

an inclusive a**hole

Most of my PCs try to fit this description in one way or another

[thinkpig]

Isn't it interesting how such a simple question set this off?

As a player in an evil faction, my options for who I get to play with are limited. My PC can and will meet up with almost any other PC. He is even polite in most cases, though coming into conflict with his unique sense of 'manners' can cause another PC to inadvertently do something Gibreel will find rude.

The easiest way to avoid friendship/acquaintance with Gibreel is to light a fire, smoke a pipe, carry a torch, whatever. Cooking something by the fire works, too.

Now on one scenario, a new player's character might use fire and then wonder why Gibreel is standoffish. Surely, I must be giving them the digital finger, they think. I am just roleplaying. Most of the time it's hard for me to do this; I want to make a new friend, have fun RP. Instead I stand in the corner and act like a stuck-up jerk. Gibreel is certainly a stuck up jerk, but he's had friendships with all stripes of PCs outside the cult, anyone willing to reciprocate a measure of respect most people don't realize he offers-- If you're not already staring at him like he's Cyric himself, or blowing smoke in his face.

Just as often as the above scenario, a player or character will know that waving a torch around or smoking a pipe will alienate my Aurilian PC and does so knowingly and willingly-- perhaps just to stay IC, like me in the above example, or perhaps to give me that 'digital finger'.

Either case presents the possibility of either party interpreting the encounter as an example of that aforementioned 'digital finger'. I think ALFA is mostly cool people with a mutual love for the Forgotten Realms setting and I'd bet that a good 50% of encounters interpreted as a giving of the 'digital finger' are instances of misunderstanding each others' motivations.

My advice to everyone is, try to be more open. Cliques will happen in any community, they are natural. Don't let them ruin your fun. Sometimes it takes time to develop relationships, IC and OOC alike. Not every encounter affords good opportunity for friendship.

The other day Gibreel walked past a new PC on the street. I desperately wanted to meet that PC, interact with them, find out what they were about. Nothing was really going on in game at that time, but the fact is: You don't start up a big conversation with everyone you walk past in the street. The other player and I had mutual feelings about the scenario-- it would have been really unnatural for them to do anything but walk by with maybe a glance, so that's what they did. We weren't giving each other the finger, we were staying IC and carefully maintaining our emersion and sense of realism and flavor.

Give people and their cliques another chance. One bad interaction with someone (or a group of people) doesn't mean they all have to be bad. The grudges we hold around here are ridiculous. At the same time, some people just don't fit in with some groups. So what else is new? Why should a group change its nature to accommodate someone new? Couldn't the new person make a PC that is more likely to fit in?

My advice is, if you really want to be in a particular group, talk to the people already involved in that game and find out what the problem was and why you didn't fit in, and try and make a character that does fit in, that you can enjoy. Or shake it off, roll something else up, and find your own game. It doesn't always happen overnight. ALFA takes patience.

[zicada]

I've noticed this being done a bit lately, in intro threads, that new players are told they should try to get on IRC. I think, at least from an OOP pov, getting on the players channel and getting to know the players whose characters yours will be interacting with is a good first step. Also maybe some easier to find info on player groups and such.

From an IC point of view, cliques, and characters having a hard time getting along with others etc is just good roleplaying imo,- obviously it can be taken a bit too far. The important thing is that there not be any OOC reasons for it other than trying to play a character the way they're supposed to be played.

[Burt]

I've noticed this being done a bit lately, in intro threads, that new players are told they should try to get on IRC. I think, at least from an OOP pov, getting on the players channel and getting to know the players whose characters yours will be interacting with is a good first step. Also maybe some easier to find info on player groups and such.

From an IC point of view, cliques, and characters having a hard time getting along with others etc is just good roleplaying imo,- obviously it can be taken a bit too far. The important thing is that there not be any OOC reasons for it other than trying to play a character the way they're supposed to be played.

He means #alfa-players, #alfa is definitely something of an abusive clique of jagoffs.

[maxcell]

I've noticed this being done a bit lately, in intro threads, that new players are told they should try to get on IRC. I think, at least from an OOP pov, getting on the players channel and getting to know the players whose characters yours will be interacting with is a good first step. Also maybe some easier to find info on player groups and such.

From an IC point of view, cliques, and characters having a hard time getting along with others etc is just good roleplaying imo,- obviously it can be taken a bit too far. The important thing is that there not be any OOC reasons for it other than trying to play a character the way they're supposed to be played.

He means #alfa-players, #alfa is definitely something of an abusive clique of jagoffs.

amen