Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

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Killthorne
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Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Killthorne »

Since I can't really voice my opinions and facts about these feats on the Standards forum, I thought I'd bring it here. Let's discuss!

First off, I'd like to state that I find some concerns on these feats to be valid and appreciate all that have brought them back up for reconsideration. Means a lot to me that you folks are willing to discuss this again with a better perspective.

However, I think that there are certain elements that need to be addressed before blanketted assumptions and generalizations snuff out this "dead horse" one more time.

1) These feats have to be approved. We speak on being proactive in the face of breaking ALFA policy and yet we're forgetting this major key point in acquiring these feats: approval and the positive mindset that the people approved are going to not abuse the system. I see too much reference to negative abuses that may or may not happen and this overwhelming fear that if they are allowed, these abuses will occur with much more ease. I have heard that players without these feats are abusing the system with weak enforcement policies so to claim that this would add to it, seems a bit fallacious. Again, these are approved feats only.

2) Personally, I do not see what is terribly bad about damage reduction and damage resistance. How many goblins or orcs or what-have-you's are whipping out acid and fire damage in such a case that it even applies? And even if the player is tossed a fireball or acid arrow, the damage is buffered, not completely immune. Same goes for physical damage. In this though, I can understand the concerns over stackable DR but do not see small amounts to have that great of an effect in the game to break it, or cause DM's to feel thwarted by these seemingly "overpowered" PC's.

3) These are feats that replace everything else that is just as necessary to building a character that is well-built ( and capable of the dreaded farming I keep hearing about). The PC is going to be missing very important and essential feats that make a well-rounded PC and in my opinion, one that is much more dangerous. I did a little research and testing with the heritage feats and so:



Fey Heritage

This feat is a level one only feat. +3 vs. enchantments. It only acts as a stackable feat to other enchantment resistances which are racial only, usually and with Fey Skin. Enchantments. So yes, charm person, confusion and the like will have a hard time breaking through. Don't think that's going to be much of an issue. Just an edge on enchantments.

Fey Power

This gives a +1 to that resistance to enchantments and caster level on enchantment spells and warlock invocations. Again, I don't think that +1 is going to hurt too much considering there are other class abilities that allow for such. And enchantments, once again. *twirls finger*

Fey Skin

I can see how the stacking of this can lead to some concern. I would be willing to see the stacking on this dropped or the feat dropped entirely if it cannot be done.

Fey Presence

Deep Slumber 3/day. I see some concerns in the 3/day and would not complain if it was dropped to 1/day. I don't see how farming is even an issue when there are diminished returns. And honestly, if you're going to use this only once per day, you're not going to be 'coup de grace'ing too much. It affects 5 creatures max.


Fey Legacy

Confusion 3/day. I read up on this on the NWN2 wiki and think that sure, 1/day would be a reasonable compromise. But here.. this is what NWN2 wiki says about Confusion:

"Affected targets have a 10% chance to walk around aimlessly, a 40% chance to stand still, but 50% chance to attack the nearest creature (which will be probably you or one of your companions). The chance is re-rolled each round (every 6 seconds). This is possibly the worst choice for an incapacitation spell and only interesting for those who specialise in enchantment. "

Fiendish Heritage

+4 vs. poison, +1 to all saves vs good magic. Maybe it's a little unfair that this heritage feat gets the saves as opposed to fey heritage but I don't think it's that much of an issue. Players can play drow here with SR.

Fiendish Power

Bumps Evocation spell DC's and caster levels, as well as warlock invocation caster levels up by 1. I don't see this as problematic.

Fiendish Resistance

I don't see much of a problem with damage resistance as others do, so I am biased. If anything, break the stacking. If it's really that much of a concern, take it out.

Fiendish Presence

Fear 2/day. Not really that powerful in my mind but to be on the safe side, 1/day should meet concerns.

Fiendish Legacy

Summon Monster V 3/day. Would sound somewhat powerful if it wasn't broken according to NWN2 Wiki:

"This ability is bugged as of v1.23, CL does not equal caster level. CL is always level 1."

My suggestion would be to either implement something that works and make it 1/day.
Now that I've pretty much covered how I feel about these feats, I'd like to be frank about it now. Reading that Standards forum topic on this subject leads me to believe that there are somehow no other "dangerous combinations" that are being created in character builds. It's as if these feats are going bust the framework and policies set up in and out of game and will only lead to abuse. I cannot say that I agree with that and I find that these assumptions don't give me any positive feelings about myself or other players. I believe this negative thinking needs to stop.

When I see the word "farming," I think of the player responsible for doing it, not the class or race or feats behind the farming. Stating the obvious here, but this is a Forgotten Realms based world that is heavy on roleplaying and consists of violent situations that entail permadeath. Permadeath almost requires everyone of the conscious and subconscious notion that one needs to try and survive as best as they can. Not everyone is outfitted to the teeth in magical gear and weaponry, so many of us rely on the "edges" we get from skills, feats, spells and powers. To continually take away those edges leaves some concepts falling flat and colorless. For example, some people fear the warlock for their ranged touch attack blasts, but their damage scales just as much as a sneak attack or a wizard's damage capabilities with spells. Sure, warlocks can wear light armor, but they lack decent protection spells. Multiclassing a warlock almost seems beneficial, but then you lose out on progression within the class and forgo later buffs and invocation tricks, which are truly few in number as to what one can learn.

If we deny people the benefit of the doubt in that they are actually playing out a PC concept with all feats and skills in mind, we are truly doing much more damage to ourselves than need be. I cannot stress enough how important it is for myself to consider feats and skills as part of the roleplaying breadth of my characters. Maybe not everyone thinks like me, but that's what ALFA wants from its players at the very least.

And please, whatever you do decide, don't base your judgments on assumptions or by way of players who abuse the system. Remember also, that these feats require approval and that alone makes an obstacle.

Thanks,

~Killy~
Current PC: Ethan Greymourne, Ranger of Gwaeron Windstrom
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by oldgrayrogue »

I just want to point out that there are no "weak enforcement policies." All complaints of suspected rules violations brought to the attention of PA are fully investigated and resolved in accordance with ALFA rules.
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Killthorne
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Killthorne »

Well then, there shouldn't be any problems! ;) Good.

Edit: By the way, OGR, I am not personally accusing you of anything. I believe you. It's just what I surmise from every comment made about such things: that people are going to be farming, farming, farming and no one is going to stop them. To me, this is one of those generalizations that seems to act as an excuse for not allowing those feats above.

~Killy~
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by NESchampion »

As an aside, Confusion is a very powerful effect and having experienced it on my characters a few times it was very conceivable to have a "Total Party Kill" as the result. It's true it's not sleep + coup de grace, but some races are immune to sleep. None seem to be immune to confusion except undead of course.

As for damage reduction / resistance, wizards can do that at level 1 with spells like Endure Elements and level 3 with Ghostly Visage.

I also have no problem reducing them all to 1/day, as I don't really see them as being an issue.
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Killthorne
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Killthorne »

Depends on where people are located with Confusion. It's a tactical spell with random results. Yes, I've seen it do some wicked things when all the party is grouped up close. Also have seen it allow my PC to keep on attacking the target.

Thing is, no one will get this ability until level 9. Something that doesn't just happen overnight and is not reached by many. My highest level character ever was Arakiel at level 10. And he died so... I don't have the utmost faith that my PC's will be around til' level 20.

~Killy~
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by fluffmonster »

Powergamer. I can't believe I play with you.
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Castano »

I agree with Killy to a point. I had a longer post, but it was eaten by the forums...

2 main issues with these feats that need to be addressed:

1. CvC violence. How do these feats impact other players - will they be at a disadvantage because they lack the magic gear to counter the feat-holding PC's? Do we have to readjust our awards of items to compensate? Since ALFA is low magic, and FR was based on high magic we have a disconnect, which I think is what you see here - a race that appears over-powered, largely because we consciously under-powered the other players (that is under-powered versus the off the shelf FR campaign setting).

2. Farming: I'm not worried about farming static spawns as Killy is right that with the enhanced tools, centralized information gathering and lower player base, we can effectively police our members, without taking content away (which I consider to be a fall back position for any PW). As a DM I don't care how you killed off the goblin clan, or even how easily, I do care that you hit the same one 5 times a week. My own preference has always been a campaign game model, but I realize this does not work for all of our members, esp. those with erratic play-times (and we advertise as a PW) so we need spawns.
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Rotku »

These feats are silly. Let's ban them. And Warlocks.
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by oldgrayrogue »

Killthorne wrote:Well then, there shouldn't be any problems! ;) Good.

Edit: By the way, OGR, I am not personally accusing you of anything. I believe you. It's just what I surmise from every comment made about such things: that people are going to be farming, farming, farming and no one is going to stop them. To me, this is one of those generalizations that seems to act as an excuse for not allowing those feats above.

~Killy~
No worries Killy, I did not take it as an accusation. Its just that I don't want an impression left on the boards that there is no active enforcement of the rules, because there is =)
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Killthorne
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Killthorne »

1. CvC violence. How do these feats impact other players - will they be at a disadvantage because they lack the magic gear to counter the feat-holding PC's? Do we have to readjust our awards of items to compensate? Since ALFA is low magic, and FR was based on high magic we have a disconnect, which I think is what you see here - a race that appears over-powered, largely because we consciously under-powered the other players (that is under-powered versus the off the shelf FR campaign setting).
Players will always have advantages and disadvantages in CvC. Even without the addition of these feats, there are level differences, racial differences, gear differences, feat differences, class differences,etc.. CvC is almost never on a even playing field. This is why we all shudder about our fairly open CvC policy in the first place, yet we all know that if we're going to do this right, we have to have CvC to make it "realistic." CvC is hardly fun here in ALFA (well to some it might be), but there are cases where it is absolutely justified. And in those cases we find ourselves questioning the fairness of it all when it just cannot be... ever.
2. Farming: I'm not worried about farming static spawns as Killy is right that with the enhanced tools, centralized information gathering and lower player base, we can effectively police our members, without taking content away (which I consider to be a fall back position for any PW). As a DM I don't care how you killed off the goblin clan, or even how easily, I do care that you hit the same one 5 times a week. My own preference has always been a campaign game model, but I realize this does not work for all of our members, esp. those with erratic play-times (and we advertise as a PW) so we need spawns.
I wish I knew the toolset well enough, because I would rather like to build encounters to be a bit more random or locative in structure. Having the same four or five positions on a map where goblins spawn is not very wise. Also, these spawns should move. I agree though with your sentiments on not how they kill them, but how many times they are. I think statics should not focus solely on killing. Statics ( which I loathe, yet understand their need to be in modules) should skim the edge of danger, but never bring you fully into it. It breaks immersion that way when the same quest that everyone gets, attacks the same goblin cave umpteen times a week and it seems pointless to do such as they keep respawning the same way after several hours.


Anyways.

~Killy~
Current PC: Ethan Greymourne, Ranger of Gwaeron Windstrom
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Killthorne
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Re: Let's Talk Heritage Feats!

Post by Killthorne »

These feats are silly. Let's ban them. And Warlocks.
Two birds with one stone. :stone:

:wink:

~Killy~
Current PC: Ethan Greymourne, Ranger of Gwaeron Windstrom
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