RDD..lame?

[Glabro]

Instead of inserting snide comments, might I offer a counterpoint?

The RDD CAN be "lame" if multiclassed in an abusive way, from a fighting oriented single level bard - rest fighter / barbarian. It's probably worth the BaB / feat hit, but not by such a huge margin as many other possibilities in PnP.

However, this has nothing to do with the fact that a bard, let alone a single leveled bard / warrior has NO business whatsoever taking the RDD class in a roleplaying standpoint, which is only really meant for Sorcerers. And ALFA is all about preventing abusive multiclassing, right?

There's this whole thing about sorcerers claiming to have draconic blood, and this class just happens to offer the pure sorcerer the option of manifesting that draconic blood at the cost of spellcasting.

Usually the RDD would be taken at 7th level after learning 3rd level spells. The RDD will, until level 17, be receiving 3rd level spells only, while gaining fighting power, HP and stats. I can say with utmost confidence that in NWN, a level 12 sorcerer is more powerful than a level 6 sorcerer / level 6 RDD. The bonuses NEED to be substantial to make the spell power trade off worthwhile. Sorcerer HP, attack bonus and fighting stats are usually pretty crummy after six levels of sorcerer, anyway.

Solution: limit RDD to pure-classed sorcerers only. Problem solved.

[Arkan Bladesinger]

Only prob being that some wiseass at WoTC decided that bardic magic is descended from draconic/demonic bloodline as well.

Makes no sense to me, but that´s how I recall it being unless they changed it again.

I haven´t checked what they do in NWN2, but in NWN1 RDD eventually grow wings as well, which goes a bit over top.

As a PrC for those dragonblooded I would not be against it, but as it is implemented it is very cheesy.

PS. Why just Red Dragon?

[Zelknolf]

My point, in response to the build comments, was that it was no worse than other classes. Sure, you can stack the class to be effective in a particular aspect, but 10 levels of RDD will average 57 hit points, coming from a class that averages 25 for its first five levels, assuming they pick the better fighter of the options (30 after the RDD con bonus) -- seriously, who wants to be a level 15 melee fighter with 87 hit points (117 if you put that efficient 14 into con)? Granted, straight fighter has about 96 (126 with that nice efficient 14 con), but that straight fighter also has 13 feats and heavy armor (v. the bard/RDD's 6, w/o heavy armor). The bardic spellcasting is basically forfeit, unless there's still spell involved (in which case, 2 level 1 and 4 level 0 spells/day. buuhuu). Basically, I say "Don't obsess over what the lists say; build one, equip it to standards. I bet I could make a single-classed character at the same level and the same-valued gear that would kill it. Gimme a PrC and I'll even do it easily." --- btw- Bigby's Grasping Hand grapples at about +30 for a level 15 wizard. A RDD? Mmmm...+18? If it's built like a fighter? Can finger of death right after that... DC 24ish? If we're lookin' at focuses in place (hell, 26 in NWN1)? brd 5/RDD 10's fort save? +10ish. 65% chance of a kill in a standard action right there. Not like the sucker's gonna buff himself; death ward is divine spellcaster material.

I'm with Glabro on the "ftr/brd/rdd shouldn't be allowed" -- I'd hope the DMs asked about that would promptly ignore the request; clearly such a character isn't focusing all that hard on his/her draconic lineage. There's a strong, concerted effort to hone very mundane asskickin' abilities. Though that's not an opposition to the mechanical advantage; I think that's bad story, belonging in a backstory of a comic book (or possibly a Salvatore novel? I'd hope we're better than that, as a community).

[Arkan Bladesinger]

Aye, these days most of FR stuff are bad comic book stuff

From the beginning it is bad story as Red Dragons should be most egoistical and the least likely things to assume a humanoid form ( although it is of course possible) not to mention using it to breed.

Most likely disciples of dragon blood would come from metallic or gem dragons, although there's always a few possible evil variants and the disciples alignment aren´t necessarily set by the colour of the parentage.

Moreover, RDD like tiefling/Aasimar are not direct descendants. They are people who have this blood in their lineage. They just had a freak accident in their case to have this alien blood so strong in their veins as to be born different.

Mechanicwise no more to add, except gaining wings is still odd in my books.

[NickD]

My point, in response to the build comments, was that it was no worse than other classes. Sure, you can stack the class to be effective in a particular aspect, but 10 levels of RDD will average 57 hit points, coming from a class that averages 25 for its first five levels, assuming they pick the better fighter of the options (30 after the RDD con bonus) -- seriously, who wants to be a level 15 melee fighter with 87 hit points (117 if you put that efficient 14 into con)? Granted, straight fighter has about 96 (126 with that nice efficient 14 con), but that straight fighter also has 13 feats and heavy armor (v. the bard/RDD's 6, w/o heavy armor). The bardic spellcasting is basically forfeit, unless there's still spell involved (in which case, 2 level 1 and 4 level 0 spells/day. buuhuu). Basically, I say "Don't obsess over what the lists say; build one, equip it to standards. I bet I could make a single-classed character at the same level and the same-valued gear that would kill it. Gimme a PrC and I'll even do it easily." --- btw- Bigby's Grasping Hand grapples at about +30 for a level 15 wizard. A RDD? Mmmm...+18? If it's built like a fighter? Can finger of death right after that... DC 24ish? If we're lookin' at focuses in place (hell, 26 in NWN1)? brd 5/RDD 10's fort save? +10ish. 65% chance of a kill in a standard action right there. Not like the sucker's gonna buff himself; death ward is divine spellcaster material.

To be fair...

In ALFA it's max hp/lvl. And there's the +1 hp/level at level 7 RDD. So 120HP + 30HP for bard and +15 on top with the con bonus, vs. 150HP for a fighter.

And with natural armour getting up to +4, a chain shirt is as good as full plate... with a better allowable dex bonus.

That said, I don't think the RDD is overpowered. I'd much rather have a 15th level bard. Heartbeat healing and Stoneskin for the whole party by 11th level.

[Zelknolf]

To be fair...

In ALFA it's max hp/lvl. And there's the +1 hp/level at level 7 RDD. So 120HP + 30HP for bard and +15 on top with the con bonus, vs. 150HP for a fighter.

Already counted the con in mine, but if it's indeed max hit points for every level, and not just the first 3...
5 bard levels at d6 = 30
3 RDD at d6 (1 - 3) = 18
2 RDD at d8 (4 - 5) = 16
5 RDD at d10 (6 - 10) = 50
con +2 at lv 7 = 30
= 144

yer close, but I claim victoree! There's still a hit point difference (it's just a bigger difference when only them first few levels are maxed)! Muahaha!

And with natural armour getting up to +4, a chain shirt is as good as full plate... with a better allowable dex bonus.

Granted - natural armor stacks with natural enhancement, so 14 dex RDD in breastplate > 12 dex fighter in full plate (on AC). 'course, brd 5/rdd 10 gets 2 attacks/rd (3 next level) and ftr 15 gets 3 (4 next level). Part of the cost of expecting to stand in the melee when you've got levels in a mid-BAB class.

That said, I don't think the RDD is overpowered. I'd much rather have a 15th level bard. Heartbeat healing and Stoneskin for the whole party by 11th level.

Wait... so... stoneskin is on the bard spell list without its (250 gold) material component and people are complaining about red dragon disciples being powerful and/or lame?

So, do you pluck a harp until granite and (free) diamond dust meld into the target's skin? On the plus side, I'm sure you could write that and send it to WotC; they'll make a novel out of it.

[psycho_leo]

That said, I don't think the RDD is overpowered. I'd much rather have a 15th level bard. Heartbeat healing and Stoneskin for the whole party by 11th level.

Wait... so... stoneskin is on the bard spell list without its (250 gold) material component and people are complaining about red dragon disciples being powerful and/or lame?

I don't think bards get stoneskin as a spell, no. But they get the Ironskin chant at lvl 9, wich grants dmg reduction to the party for 4 rounds. Not as effective as stoneskin, but it does get everyone.

[NickD]

Already counted the con in mine, but if it's indeed max hit points for every level, and not just the first 3...
5 bard levels at d6 = 30
3 RDD at d6 (1 - 3) = 18
2 RDD at d8 (4 - 5) = 16
5 RDD at d10 (6 - 10) = 50
con +2 at lv 7 = 30
= 144

yer close, but I claim victoree! There's still a hit point difference (it's just a bigger difference when only them first few levels are maxed)! Muahaha!

RDD gets a flat d12 in NWN2.

[danielmn]

OMG!!! Zelk lost an info. battal!!!!

HELL HAS COME TO EARTH!!!!!!!!

*runs for the hills*

[NickD]

I don't think bards get stoneskin as a spell, no. But they get the Ironskin chant at lvl 9, wich grants dmg reduction to the party for 4 rounds. Not as effective as stoneskin, but it does get everyone.

Right, 9th level not 11th, I read it wrong.

Lasts 9 rounds with lingering song.

[Keryn]

To be fair...

In ALFA it's max hp/lvl. And there's the +1 hp/level at level 7 RDD. So 120HP + 30HP for bard and +15 on top with the con bonus, vs. 150HP for a fighter.

Already counted the con in mine, but if it's indeed max hit points for every level, and not just the first 3...
5 bard levels at d6 = 30
3 RDD at d6 (1 - 3) = 18
2 RDD at d8 (4 - 5) = 16
5 RDD at d10 (6 - 10) = 50
con +2 at lv 7 = 30
= 144

yer close, but I claim victoree! There's still a hit point difference (it's just a bigger difference when only them first few levels are maxed)! Muahaha!

And with natural armour getting up to +4, a chain shirt is as good as full plate... with a better allowable dex bonus.

Granted - natural armor stacks with natural enhancement, so 14 dex RDD in breastplate > 12 dex fighter in full plate (on AC). 'course, brd 5/rdd 10 gets 2 attacks/rd (3 next level) and ftr 15 gets 3 (4 next level). Part of the cost of expecting to stand in the melee when you've got levels in a mid-BAB class.

That said, I don't think the RDD is overpowered. I'd much rather have a 15th level bard. Heartbeat healing and Stoneskin for the whole party by 11th level.

Wait... so... stoneskin is on the bard spell list without its (250 gold) material component and people are complaining about red dragon disciples being powerful and/or lame?

So, do you pluck a harp until granite and (free) diamond dust meld into the target's skin? On the plus side, I'm sure you could write that and send it to WotC; they'll make a novel out of it.

Sorry but your wrong!!!!

RDD gets d12 FLAT

Also who said you have to get 5 straight bard levels? mixing fighter in the midle is easy I supose but anyway.

Since i was curious I built an RDD in 5 mins just to check what happened.

so... at level 15 - Ftr/Bard/rdd
(not using enchanted armor which at level 15 he would have but lets not get to that )

211HP
31 AC
20 AB
1d8 +10 dmg x2 he has 3 attacks (using a longsword) I could have picked exotic without but I got greedy and decided to pick monkey grip just for fun and see what would happen with a greatsword
BAB 11

I should refer the 29 strenght he has at level 15 I think its funny!


So...

Our friend bard at level 15 using same stats had

122HP
19AC
16AB with the same three attacks
1d8 +4
BAB 11

A fighter

180HP
26AC
20AB with 3 attacks
1d8 +9
BAB 15

Which means the fighter gets a litle better bab and thats it, while RDD gets imunities to fire paralysis, breath weapon, etc...etc...

I think its a overpowered class because of the ability if gives you to build a much much stronger toon, Im not saying it cant be used properly and even make a normal toon who would loose to a rat. But lets face it... its cheesy!

[Zelknolf]

So, d12 - flat-rate HD on RDD is news to me; didn't know it changed from 3.0 -> 3.5. Seems Tome & Blood had a disagreement with the SRD.

To the stat blocks: yes, the RDD has natural abilities, and that's all. That's the class's power; saying that natural powers on a RDD are powerful is like saying feats on a fighter are powerful or spells on a wizard are powerful. And, indeed, comparing only those natural abilities to other classes (who have abilities elsewhere) will produce some staggering numbers. Your fighter probably had expertise, power attack, and dodge/mobility (vital to taking down high-hp, low-skill, low-ability mosters... like the RDD!), your bard had 5 - 6 spell levels of casting and all of the delight of bardic music; neither of these were posted. I pointed out that the strength score is what gets griped about most often, but 8 points of strength (as your own stat blocks show) only makes up the difference created by not advancing in a martial class.



In response to the cheese:
I can go into TSM and roll up a CG dual-scimitar-wielding drow ranger named Fizzt Ro'Murdan. Hell, I can get my campaign settings mixed up and make a jaundiced mage in black robes named Raistlin. Does this make all drow cheesy, or all wizards cheesy?

You've got a couple of examples stuck in your head, and are assuming that all of the concepts and portrayals would be cheesy because of that. Cheese comes from ignoring canon and/or copying characters from the godawful WotC literature who also ignore the canon. There's a hole poked in the consistency of the world by that, sure, and it sucks to have 'em about, but that comes from bad roleplayers and poorly-written supplements, not from classes that are part of the core rules.

[Dorn]

Thanks all.

I guess from what i see they're no more overpowered than a cleric or some other PrC or some of the ECL races.

I'd like to consider them as [blank] Dragon Disciple so they could be used as lineage to other dragons (ie blue, bronze etc), but i guess the use of them full stop in addition to any varions on the colour themes are up to probably the HDMs.

Edit:

to clarify, i mean using the RDD as part of a mix rather than maxing them as part of a powerbuild

i was toying with the idea of barb1-2/rdd1-2/bard the rest for an awesome skald with some funky background stuff goin on

[Thangorn]

Dorn? Whut? Rerolling?

.. also I applaud your efforts in drama creation.. tis win

.. although this has been far too clean a debate for my liking

more personal slurs 4tw

[Veilan]

more personal slurs 4tw

Thangorn smells like pigfish.