Traps

[Mulu]

Just by way of comparison to some SRD items

Your comparisons are all useable by anyone, thus fail. Traps are specialized and can backfire.

Continuing this thought, the proper pricing comparison should be to scroll spells that do equivalent damage. For that matter, maybe what rogues in ALFA NWN2 need to do is pump the crap out of their UMD skills and just use scrolls if this trap issue doesn't get resolved. Heck, they weigh nothing and are stackable. Skill focus feat UMD to the rescue!

[AlmightyTDawg]

Just by way of comparison to some SRD items

Your comparisons are all useable by anyone, thus fail. Traps are specialized and can backfire.

Continuing this thought, the proper pricing comparison should be to scroll spells that do equivalent damage. For that matter, maybe what rogues in ALFA NWN2 need to do is pump the crap out of their UMD skills and just use scrolls if this trap issue doesn't get resolved. Heck, they weigh nothing and are stackable. Skill focus feat UMD to the rescue!

The items listed there are somewhat variable - the point is more an idea of basically how much damage dice should be worth in the magical crafting variety. You have all kinds of things which come into consideration, including AoE, range, and the like for those items, but I think the rough equivalent of the 200 - 300gp/d6 sounds about right. While traps are "specialized," they are skill-based rather than class-based and are at some level universal, particularly with multiclassing and/or Able Learner (if that's still left in). If we were trying to wed to damage spells, I think we'd be going off of potion rather than scroll costs, but honestly I'd just be more comfortable with a less formulaic pricing scheme based on damage dice, AoE, Save, and 2d-effects. The items were there to give an idea of what magical traps would cost - totally irrespective of the established rules for traps of considerably reduced effectiveness and higher cost.

And while I would cheekily add that UMD is a valid solution in the mid-levels/teens, the backfire rules actually mean something (any rogue with a working EKG isn't going to expose themselves to serious backfires) with UMD, and the rolls are far, far tougher. And scrolls can't be stacked in advance to effectively have the equivalent of four-plus scrolls go off in one round. Case-in-point, I once lagged in a four second spot through six traps (yeah evasion). That fundamentally needs to get corrected.

I like non-recoverability, I like weight, I like increased cost, and I like a fixed/minimum distance between traps. Add in those and I think we could live easily without increased setup time.

[Kalbron]

200-300gp/d6? Why, oh why do so many people seem to have this massive misconception that traps are some sort of amazingly powerful PC genocide devices?

The trap set DCs: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Set_trap
The trap damages: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Trap_kit

Please read through there and tell me exactly where the overpowering stuff is because I'd really like to know. Keep in mind that Acid Blob, Electrical, Gas, Fire, Holy and Negative traps already cost in the hundreds of gp for just the minor versions.

Nobody, and I mean nobody will be likely to see anything over Average at this stage of ALFA. Nor would they want to considering that, if we assume a rogue has at least 14 INT, they'll need to be at least lvl 8 to not have the trap explode and kill them 50%+ of the time for a DC 25 trap, ie: the more powerful Average traps and some of the Strong. This means that to start utilizing some of the most powerful traps in the game without risking killing themselves a PC needs to be lvl 13, to utilize the very strongest ones the PC needs to be lvl 18. To utilize every trap in the game without dying a PC needs to be either using up their feats to gain skill points, or be lvl 28.

The system already scales. The more powerful Minor traps already cost hundreds of gp. The only thing which potentially even needs to be looked at is weight, and availability of Average and above traps. On every other count, traps are completely outclassed at equivalent levels by casters, and just about every fighter will be able to ignore said levels of damage by the time the rogue can use the traps.

It's likely, depending upon ALFA pricing schemes of course, actually cheaper for a high level rogue to purchase Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee scrolls and use them instead of traps. More effective too.

[Mulu]

Yep. Taking away the take 20 roll really made a huge difference in trap utility. Huge enough that the arguments against really don't apply anymore, though I still think adding weight is appropriate.

[AlmightyTDawg]

200-300gp/d6? Why, oh why do so many people seem to have this massive misconception that traps are some sort of amazingly powerful PC genocide devices?

On second thought, it's tough to come up with a single unified scheme - too many things come into it, but I figure 100gp (spike) to 300gp (lightning) per die of damage, but that's assuming something magical (in excess of 2-3d6). I'm very comfortable with ad-hoc traps based off of alchemical equipment (flashbang, tanglefoot, alchemical fire, coldstone, etc.). I don't see it as a misconception that you can legitimately run and before you can react to the first trap have run over four traps for a combined total of 32d6 damage with DC 19 reflex saves for 1/2 (16d6 still averages 56 damage).

The problem is not a single trap, the problem is an indeterminate number of traps. Well, let me check that - it's odd for rogues and rangers to have the equivalent of spell-like damage like that. It's also odd for that form of damage to cost notably less per damage than crafted magical items. The danger is not being able to do 5d4 with a frost trap. The danger is having hundreds of potential damage in the backpack that can be put out in a form with little exposure and sometimes fantastically stacked results.

I'm not too worried about the DCs unless we decide to make a rule that Set/Disable Trap can't be skill-boosted with magical items. I think the "backfire" possibility is a reasonably low-likelihood one in practice - the issue is just going to be whether you have to keep trying. Basically, a DC 25 trap backfires on a 15, which is a 5th level character (w/o feat) with moderate gear and a synergy skill bonus. To use Kalbron's example, a level 8 rogue (11 ranks) with 16 INT (+2 item, 3 points), and +5 gear would have +19, and would backfire a DC 30 trap 5% of the time, and would successfully set DC 25 traps the first time 75% of the time. While the take 20 makes level actually more important in setting traps, in the case of a prepared position (i.e. not being rushed) all it does is add time.

As for prices, someone would have to hook me up with the new pricing. I had it in my head that the prices from the original NWN1 were ported over, and there they were dramatically undervalued. Can someone post the toolset values?

[Sintaqx]

Increase the trap weight a bit and the stacking trap issue will mostly be taken care of. As stated before, the high damage/large area traps are a high enough DC as to make them unusable for all but the best trapsetters. Unrecoverable traps, I could go along with that. Increasing the setting time is perfectly alright as well.

Layered traps are a small problem, as there is no limit on them. If there were a way to make all traps in a layer go off when the first does (even on a failed set) then layering would be extremely hazardous.

[Mulu]

The problem is not a single trap, the problem is an indeterminate number of traps.

That's why you add weight.

Well, let me check that - it's odd for rogues and rangers to have the equivalent of spell-like damage like that.

Not really considering that rangers can cast spells and rogues can use scrolls and wands.

It's also odd for that form of damage to cost notably less per damage than crafted magical items.

Crafted magical items don't backfire and are typically useable by anyone.

The danger is not being able to do 5d4 with a frost trap. The danger is having hundreds of potential damage in the backpack that can be put out in a form with little exposure and sometimes fantastically stacked results.

You'd get at least 5% of them blowing up in your face, probably more if they were better than minor traps. And of course they weigh a lot.

To use Kalbron's example, a level 8 rogue (11 ranks) with 16 INT (+2 item, 3 points), and +5 gear would have +19, and would backfire a DC 30 trap 5% of the time, and would successfully set DC 25 traps the first time 75% of the time.

Well, let's see, my 5th level ALFA rogue who had an int of 14, no +2 stat item or any + anything gear... seriously, wtf campaign did you play in with twinked out gear like that? Apparently not only did you spam exploit traps, you were grossly overwealthed!

[JaydeMoon]

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[Mulu]

[Grand Fromage]

[mishmash]

The cat is genius...

[Avaz]

575 instances of the word "blah" in Jayde's post.

[JaydeMoon]

Yore mammy tawt joo good!

[mishmash]

Do you have any more cats biting you can show me Grand Fromage? I can't stop looking at that one

[ThinkTank]

aks and you will SHOOP DA WOOP.