Traps

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Mayhem
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Post by Mayhem »

Killthorne wrote: I'm sorry, but I disagree with Mayhem's perception on rogues. He doesn't think of them as assassins for one, which is nuts considering their sneak attack ability.
Thats why we have an "Assasin" class.
Killthorne wrote:
Two, he doesn't believe that they should have anything to do with traps ( a ranger's skill), yet they're the ones bypassing locks, traps, and the like, to get to whatever treasure lies beyond, i.e.: acting as scout.
[/quote]

I think they have everything to do with *disarming* traps, as that has always been their role in PnP. Setting traps? Not so much. In PNP, as has already been stated, there are not even trap kits available. Trap buildign was a job for craftsmen, not adventurers.
Killthorne wrote:
And thirdly, the usage of RP in ALFA is already prevalent. When a violent mob is trying to kill you and your allies, there is no amount of points put into persuasion that's going to save your arse from getting killed.
If the violent mob is trying to kill you and your allies, there should not be time for setting traps.
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Post by Mayhem »

AmarSldstill wrote:PnP Rogues by Comparison to NWN Rogues: -/+

- Tumble was a LOT harder, and often ignored by the DM.
ANd lets not forget NWNs introduction of bonus AC for that skill, too...
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Post by Creslyn »

Well technically it does give a bonus to ac when fighting defensively or using total defense, but they're not in either so it hardly matters.
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Post by Killthorne »

Thats why we have an "Assasin" class.
Which has deep roots in rogue. Still not convincing me. Funny how both seem to have a sneak attack... hmmm.
I think they have everything to do with *disarming* traps, as that has always been their role in PnP. Setting traps? Not so much. In PNP, as has already been stated, there are not even trap kits available. Trap buildign was a job for craftsmen, not adventurers.
I disagree again. If you know how to take a trap apart, you obviously know how it works, and how to put one together. Sure it may be easier to take one apart by disarming, but it takes the knowledge of how it's sprung to disarm it ( and not to mention magic traps). If we're going to simulate life in Faerun, I don't think crafting traps should be an obstacle considering the creation of magic items and the like, are allowed. ( " Sorry Bob, you can't make that gas trap, but Jim over here can make a +2 flaming longsword because it's more conceivable..")

As for PnP rogues vs. NWN rogues: I hate to say this, but Amar, PnP rogues kick a NWN rogue's ass when played decently a hundred times over, skill and rp-wise. I seem to recall several feats and skills that made PnP rogue'ing much more lucrative, realistic, and fun. With the NWN engine you're limited by the engine unless a DM is around to look into windows, interact with NPC's using persuasion or cons/bluffs, scaling walls, stealing correctly sized items.. and/or the area is correctly filled out with crowds of people, vegetation, the right shadowing, etc... So as you can see, NWN is FAR from being PnP, and a persistent world is even FARTHER from being PnP.
If the violent mob is trying to kill you and your allies, there should not be time for setting traps
No crap, but knowing of opposition well in advance, or even keeping a safe box or a door, or what-have-you, trapped? Or even setting up something along the road for a little banditry? How does that deter from good rogue RP, or acceptable skill? I think the problem is that people don't trust people enough to play rogues, and if that's the case, you shouldn't allow them in all your paranoia. And then I think you should refrain from letting people use mages because who can trust anyone with their destructive power... or a fighter with a weapon proficiency.

You pick a class and you get all the pro's and con's from it. Rogues have crap for hits, to-hits, and for armor, unless your dex is jacked up crazy-like.


~Killthorne~
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Post by Mulu »

Killthorne wrote:Or even setting up something along the road for a little banditry?
No, no, no, only NPC barbarians can do that!

Amar, one of the biggest things rogues lose in NWN is disguise. I know that's being kicked around, but you can never duplicate it completely. With the right skills and preparation you can walk through an orc horde without drawing attention to yourself, no shadows needed. Forgery, true sleight of hand (swapping a fake necklace for a real one), well the list goes on and on. Heck, just being able to climb walls and enter through a window makes a huge difference. PnP has infinite possibility, NWN is very constrained, though still fun of course.
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Post by Kalbron »

Mulu wrote:No, no, no, only NPC barbarians can do that!
Yeah! Only kittens, candy and hugs on ALFA!

>_>
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Post by Mulu »

Kalbron wrote:
Mulu wrote:No, no, no, only NPC barbarians can do that!
Yeah! Only kittens, candy and hugs on ALFA!

>_>
It was a joke, sheesh!
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Post by Mayhem »

Killthorne wrote:
I think they have everything to do with *disarming* traps, as that has always been their role in PnP. Setting traps? Not so much. In PNP, as has already been stated, there are not even trap kits available. Trap buildign was a job for craftsmen, not adventurers.
If we're going to simulate life in Faerun, I don't think crafting traps should be an obstacle considering the creation of magic items and the like, are allowed. ( " Sorry Bob, you can't make that gas trap, but Jim over here can make a +2 flaming longsword because it's more conceivable..")

~Killthorne~
Given that I already mentioned that if we include traps, we need to increase their set-up time, this is a straw-man argument - unless you are arguing that ALFA should allow the creation of magical items in the middle of a combat.

"What are you going to do this round? Attack an enemy?"
"No, I'm going to create a +2 Flaming Longsword..."

And you might notice, I didn;t say we wouldn't have trap-building, only that they require the skills of a craftsman, not an adenturer. NPC blacksmiths are not adventurers, why should NPC trap-makers be?

Note - that doesn't stop a fighter picking up levels of craft weapon, and nor des it stop a rogue (or anyone else) picking up levels of craft trap. But I don't expect a fighter to be able to hammer out a new sword in the middle of a field when being charged by an enemy.

Its also a apples/oranges comparison because the +2 flaming longsword creation uses magic, wheras rougish trapsetting does not, and yet seems to result in explosions and the like that are just as lethal as high-powered magic (one of BBs primary arguments against Trap Kits.)

I think this is another instance of people coming rom D&D backgrounds. NWN players expect rogues to have their array of instant-set-up lethal traps, PnP players don't.

****

Similarly, your argument vis "if you know how to set a trap you know how it works" is not supported by ANY version of the D&D rules, pnp or NWN. Both require the spending of skill points. We are also ignoring the distinction between crafting a trap and setting one, of course. In-situ large traps probably have no such distinction - it is set up as it is built, but the kind of speedy set-up trap kits that you are presumably advocating do have such a distinction.

*****

And finally, your point about setting up in advance. Absolutely fine - if it takes a realistic amount of time. What we shouldn't be seeing is a rogue running around a corner and setting a trap whilst the angry mob is actively pursuing him.
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Post by Amar »

Mulu wrote:
Killthorne wrote:Or even setting up something along the road for a little banditry?
Amar, one of the biggest things rogues lose in NWN is disguise. I know that's being kicked around, but you can never duplicate it completely. With the right skills and preparation you can walk through an orc horde without drawing attention to yourself, no shadows needed. Forgery, true sleight of hand (swapping a fake necklace for a real one), well the list goes on and on. Heck, just being able to climb walls and enter through a window makes a huge difference. PnP has infinite possibility, NWN is very constrained, though still fun of course.
Mulu, that is covered in my list.

See "-More skills they have to put their points into" and "+They can RP their way out of more situations"

Disguise is both of those. And something I thought about adding to its own + but realized that in terms of combat effectiveness, which is what this thread is centered around, it was already covered by my listed bullet points.

EDIT: The point i was making is that overall rogues have combat a LOT easier than they did in PnP. And there is a complaint about "loss of combat skill" due to lack of traps is completely unresearched.
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Post by Kalbron »

In PnP a rogue can concievably snipe a target from a rooftop in a city, while still being within sneak attack range. They can then dash across the rooftops, swing down a rope on the side of a nearby building, flee a couple of alleys then hide in shadows and the like there.

In NWN2, if you're within the engine's "30ft", there's no chance in hell you'll be escaping without HiPS. Or be on the rooftop. Or jump across rooftops. Or using a rope.

Who has less combat potential again? The character that can use a plethora of skills to escape a situation where they gave themselves the first strike opportunity, or the one who gets into melee less than 2 seconds after they fire their shot?

-----

The main issue I'm seeing here has already been indentified by many others. The ones arguing for the removal/massive gimping are primarily based in PnP. The ones opposed to such movements seem, on average, to have CRPG backgrounds. Just like Mayhem suggested.

In PnP, no matter what you're doing, no matter where you are, no matter who or what your character is, you always have a DM with you.

It's just not feasible to take the same mindset into something like NWN2 because unless the DM:Player ratio is nearly 1:2, many, if not most, players are going to be doing things without a DM present.

In their CRPG incarnation, a rogue sucks at combat of all sorts. Melee, because that's just the way rogues are. Ranged, because ranged combat sucks in general in NWN2. The only factor that rogues have going for them is their dirty tricks. One of which is Sneak Attack. The other are the trap kits.

Now you might like to argue that rogues aren't entirely about fighting, and that may well be true. However this is a PW. And an adventurer focused PW as far as I can tell. Thus there will be combat. The only rogues that won't be engaging in combat at low levels will be those halfling characters entirely built around beating OEI's poorly designed stealth mechanics and even that can be done better by a bard/sorc. Traps are useful tools for low level rogues to survive. At higher levels they're still useful, but not nearly as much when you've got a much higher AB and better gear. They are not unbalancing because a) they give no xp for kills, b) anyone attempting to pull off trap spam kills in CvC would have the overseeing DM spank them with a Pit Fiend.

----

However since it seems people are set on nerfing trap kits, why not something like this?

Have merchants sell Minor kits, and only Minor kits. Up the price if you really want to. However leave the creation of stronger trap types in the hands of PCs only. This will drastically reduce the number of powerful traps in the world. Moreover it'll mean that PCs will need to expend skillpoints in three seperate skills in order to get the maximum benefit of traps. Not to mention lots of gold and time to gather ingredients and the like, some of which may well be made craftable only by PCs! Or in certain regions where you need friends to travel! Rp opportunities! Shock, horror! :wink:

Also, if the time to set a trap is to be extended, make it reasonable. ALFA doesn't make PCs spend 56 minutes (8 IG hours) resting or memorising spells. It doesn't even make them spend 7 minutes. Thus expecting a trap kit to take that long to set is just silly. Twenty or maybe thirty seconds would be more than long enough time to prevent say, massive trap spam before an impromtu ambush, and to prevent the wild imaginings of people running around corners dropping traps (wouldn't happen at any rate considering how fast and far PCs move in NWN2).

[/thesis] ;)
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Post by Mulu »

The more I think about it, the only nerfs that seem needed are the crafting process (the default is pretty darn easy) and the weight of the trap kit. By the time a rogue can set the more powerful traps, they aren't really that tough compared to spells or even a good sneak attack as long as they aren't used by the dozen. Weight should solve that problem as a practical matter.

Mayhem, I don't see where anyone is talking about crafting traps while monsters are charging at you. That seems to be your straw man. For that matter, I've never even set a trap during a monster charge, you always do it in advance of the charge, which is therefore another straw man. The way pretty much everyone uses traps is: Set trap, bait monster into charging. If you are already fleeing the encounter, best you can do is toss caltrops or choking powder.

What's really missing from traps is the AI if they are detected. I do find it pretty funny though that people are lamenting dumb monsters charging through traps, when dumb PC's do it all the time....
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Post by Mulu »

And on thinking about it further, it seems to me that we need to look at how traps were utilized in ALFA NWN1. If they were game-breaking, then we should be discussing nerfs. If they were in the game and not unbalancing, then why are we even having this discussion? They should be in the game, having several years of ALFA precedent, PnP be damned as we don't play that here. I guess I fail to see how the new platform requires *everything* to be re-examined, including those things that caused no problems for several years in ALFA NWN1.

Again, it looks like people looking for things to change, without thinking about whether or not they need to be changed at all, or alternatively an irrational fidelity to PnP rules in a gaming community that doesn't play PnP.
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Post by wvincenti »

Did we use a lot of traps at times? Yes.
Could I afford thermonuclear traps that would destroy all comers? No.
Did I see them as game breakers? No.

Control the ones coming in game and I think we're fine.
DMs cracked down on folks planting traps in ridiculous places like on or near ATs and in the middle of busy streets years ago. Most folks find out that that sort of behavior is highly frowned up in a hurry.

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Post by Mayhem »

The sillyest part of traps is often the fact that they are being used to protect something that is worth less than the trap...
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