ALFA Live currently has ZERO trapkits available (i.e., see first couple posts of this thread). If any are on store shelves, or obtainable via "recovery" actions on triggers DM may lay in their sessions or in lairs they've toolsetted, I think it's fair to say those are an oversight, please bug report, trashbin them, etc.
Not to put words into AcadiusLost's mouth, but I think he and I have expressed a similar sentiment on "well, maybe should look at reintroduction of a couple of the minor kits," we may also share the same distaste on kits that simulate mid to high level arcane & divine spells. Again, this kind of kit business would still have zero parallel to D&D, but NWN2 lacks a lot of the alchemical items that any normal D&D campaign might normally have. Inventing a couple little spike / snare things of low power and low cost might be fair and useful. Still doesn't solve AI charging straight through them, even if they detect them, but hey... AI are idiots anyhow.
I do not know whether Set Traps would be the right skill for deployment of any reintroduced sort of traps... especially if there were only a couple, it might be a pretty dead end skillpoint investment. Set Traps is another NWN invention, with no PnP parallel, no reason another skill couldn't cover trap deployment. Maybe survival. Maybe disarm traps. Maybe just an Intelligence check. Don't know. I'm not in proposal making mode at the moment... but the topic could maybe stand exploration.
Traps
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Brokenbone
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AcadiusLost
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The major issue I can see in bringing traps into conformity with PnP is that it is impossible to bring combat and movement into line with PnP.
What I mean by that is that in PnP you're more likely to get off half a dozen shots if you've placed yourself well, in NWN2 you'll be lucky if they haven't reached you within the same round you started firing. Therefore without traps to help even the odds, a Rogue in combat suddenly becomes a medium AB d6 fighter who gets extra damage only in certain specific circumstances.
Another thing to remember is that traps in NWN2 do not give xp for kills. Farming won't occur if they get reintroduced because farmers don't like missing out on xp. When they will get used however is in DM events (where the DM can see the trap, and can have their critters act appropriately) and in CvC (where players can make their characters move around the place traps if they spot them).
What I mean by that is that in PnP you're more likely to get off half a dozen shots if you've placed yourself well, in NWN2 you'll be lucky if they haven't reached you within the same round you started firing. Therefore without traps to help even the odds, a Rogue in combat suddenly becomes a medium AB d6 fighter who gets extra damage only in certain specific circumstances.
Another thing to remember is that traps in NWN2 do not give xp for kills. Farming won't occur if they get reintroduced because farmers don't like missing out on xp. When they will get used however is in DM events (where the DM can see the trap, and can have their critters act appropriately) and in CvC (where players can make their characters move around the place traps if they spot them).
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ayergo
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I like this idea. Anyone know where the time for set trap is so it may be modified?Munmun wrote:Why not change the scripts so they take very long amounts of time to place and cost a decent chunk of GP to buy?
Then a rogue or ranger would need to prepare them well in advance and be damn sure they are placing the trap in the right spot. Seems win/win to me. They would also be a target during the placement time. A decent place time would be 2 in-game hours and increase by an hour for each step up in base trap strength.
Edit: I can put it on BG for testing and see how folks like it.
There's a place I like to hide
A doorway that I run through in the night
Relax child, you were there
But only didn't realize and you were scared
It's a place where you will learn
To face your fears, retrace the years
And ride the whims of your mind
A doorway that I run through in the night
Relax child, you were there
But only didn't realize and you were scared
It's a place where you will learn
To face your fears, retrace the years
And ride the whims of your mind
My own veiw on traps...for gaming and practicability in RL....
For my experience, as stated above, traps in tabletop gaming have always been a staple....but rolled for in terms of success in setting...(flub a role and you get caught in your own trap, role low and the trap probably would not go off due to malfunction in the setup)...detectability from the being who might trip the trap, a dex role if a trap is tripped. THat may not go by the book, those were more house rules. The time involved in setting a trap was dependant on the type of trap. A real life example...it would take less time to construct a 1 foot by one foot by three foot deep punji trap in the Vietnam war, than it would to construct a 10 foot by ten foot by five foot deep stake pit (which were also used by the Vietcong in strategic staging areas where confrontation was planned months in advance and our troops were lured to the spot). The relevance being, major traps were often utilized in areas planned for conflict, whereas minor traps were done often overnight on well traveled roads and paths...therefore the IG setting of a trap 20 minutes before a battle occures is completely rediculous.
Also, in my own gaming experience...electrical traps could be done, if with the right equipment. The automatic electric current springing from a trap is a tad bit much, and borders more on the magical side than construction side.. (how is electrical energy harvested and stored IG other than magic?) A player I dmed came up with very inventive traps....such as buying and stringing many small metal wires (very expensive, but reusable) having a single lead wire connected to all of the strung wires leading away from the area, and then casting (usually from a scroll) an electrical spell into the wire, therefore dealing electrical damage from a distance, usually while concealled. This could be done with dm supervision IG, but again would take preparation time as well as access and coin for the materials needed. Gas traps were practically not done at all, acid traps were a possibility....but cross your fingers if your carrying one of those around and a concealed bugbear somewhere off the road and in the woods fired an arrow...and hit your pack, breaking the container the acid was stored in.
More successful were the "built traps..." things you'd find in, say, a cheesy Rambo movie. Sharpened stakes popping up from the ground when a line is tripped, a snare trap, a log suspended in air by rope, waiting for an axe to release the tension. Still, all of these traps take time to set up, and were employed more as protection of a base camp than a means to injure enemies on the battlefield, unless a frequently traveled path or an enemies camp was found. Then, traps could be deployed under the cover of darkness and concealment. Still, these traps were meant to be a thorn in the enemies side, rather than an aid on the field of battle. Preplanned battlefields are an exeption, as noted above...but traps by my players were often set well before the battle, and took a lot of time to construct (the up side of having henchmen
).
I have been witness to ONE pc in my entirity of ALFA who actually constructed traps. *me gives mad kudos to Laurelin*
I have never been witness to a preplanned battlefield where traps were utilized well in advance..(major conflict)
I have been witness to a many setting of traps mere minutes before the battle began...
I have been witness of a few instances where actual time in game was spent setting up traps in anticipation of battle well before the battle took place...(again, go Laurelin!)
Though I do agree that traps are an integral part of the rogue class, I disagree in many of the applications I have seen traps utilized in IG. On the whole, I share Al's veiw in that minor traps are easily doable...the more major traps should take an extreme amount of time to setup (as in protection of a crypt).
For my experience, as stated above, traps in tabletop gaming have always been a staple....but rolled for in terms of success in setting...(flub a role and you get caught in your own trap, role low and the trap probably would not go off due to malfunction in the setup)...detectability from the being who might trip the trap, a dex role if a trap is tripped. THat may not go by the book, those were more house rules. The time involved in setting a trap was dependant on the type of trap. A real life example...it would take less time to construct a 1 foot by one foot by three foot deep punji trap in the Vietnam war, than it would to construct a 10 foot by ten foot by five foot deep stake pit (which were also used by the Vietcong in strategic staging areas where confrontation was planned months in advance and our troops were lured to the spot). The relevance being, major traps were often utilized in areas planned for conflict, whereas minor traps were done often overnight on well traveled roads and paths...therefore the IG setting of a trap 20 minutes before a battle occures is completely rediculous.
Also, in my own gaming experience...electrical traps could be done, if with the right equipment. The automatic electric current springing from a trap is a tad bit much, and borders more on the magical side than construction side.. (how is electrical energy harvested and stored IG other than magic?) A player I dmed came up with very inventive traps....such as buying and stringing many small metal wires (very expensive, but reusable) having a single lead wire connected to all of the strung wires leading away from the area, and then casting (usually from a scroll) an electrical spell into the wire, therefore dealing electrical damage from a distance, usually while concealled. This could be done with dm supervision IG, but again would take preparation time as well as access and coin for the materials needed. Gas traps were practically not done at all, acid traps were a possibility....but cross your fingers if your carrying one of those around and a concealed bugbear somewhere off the road and in the woods fired an arrow...and hit your pack, breaking the container the acid was stored in.
More successful were the "built traps..." things you'd find in, say, a cheesy Rambo movie. Sharpened stakes popping up from the ground when a line is tripped, a snare trap, a log suspended in air by rope, waiting for an axe to release the tension. Still, all of these traps take time to set up, and were employed more as protection of a base camp than a means to injure enemies on the battlefield, unless a frequently traveled path or an enemies camp was found. Then, traps could be deployed under the cover of darkness and concealment. Still, these traps were meant to be a thorn in the enemies side, rather than an aid on the field of battle. Preplanned battlefields are an exeption, as noted above...but traps by my players were often set well before the battle, and took a lot of time to construct (the up side of having henchmen
).I have been witness to ONE pc in my entirity of ALFA who actually constructed traps. *me gives mad kudos to Laurelin*
I have never been witness to a preplanned battlefield where traps were utilized well in advance..(major conflict)
I have been witness to a many setting of traps mere minutes before the battle began...
I have been witness of a few instances where actual time in game was spent setting up traps in anticipation of battle well before the battle took place...(again, go Laurelin!)
Though I do agree that traps are an integral part of the rogue class, I disagree in many of the applications I have seen traps utilized in IG. On the whole, I share Al's veiw in that minor traps are easily doable...the more major traps should take an extreme amount of time to setup (as in protection of a crypt).
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
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ayergo
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I believe i have found the person to help us with the AI problem, he can alert baddies well in advance...
There's a place I like to hide
A doorway that I run through in the night
Relax child, you were there
But only didn't realize and you were scared
It's a place where you will learn
To face your fears, retrace the years
And ride the whims of your mind
A doorway that I run through in the night
Relax child, you were there
But only didn't realize and you were scared
It's a place where you will learn
To face your fears, retrace the years
And ride the whims of your mind
*Admiral Ackbar turns and says to Ayergo...*
Something smells fishy here....
Something smells fishy here....
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Way back when in my PnP days, traps were usually just something to avoid. Still, inventive players came up with many plausible traps:
1. Bucket of Holy water on top edge of partially open door.
2. Flask of oil dropped on floor around corner as you flee.
3. Two PC's each holding one end of a rope, waiting in hiding while 3rd PC baits and runs away from baddie.
4. Captured wild animal released into room and door closed.
5. Fire started with powder keg under the detritus burning in the fire.
6. Etc., see any Three Stooges or old Western movie for more details. This is, after all, a fantasy game. Never, ever forget that. I think ALFAn's tend to forget the fantasy part way too often. Vietnam is the wrong analogy, think Monty Python and you'd be a lot closer.
Of course, these things are very hard to do in a computer game. Personally, I loved the old BG traps, they were simple bear traps set on the ground, some with only direct damage and some with a bit of range.
I suppose technically setting a trap is a combination of skills. Obviously coming up with it in the first place if you are the inventor, building it if you are the builder, mechanically setting it, then concealing it somehow so it actually goes off on an intended enemy. Traps have been a staple in D&D since the old red book, and I think they have a place in the game. The Bioware invented traps, carried over by Obsidian, are probably best described as "tinkered contraptions" and thus should be getting built by gnome tinkerers for sale to adventurers or nobles or anyone else who wants protection. In other words, it's not such a stretch to include them in the game as is. If you want to preface all of the traps with "Gnome Tinkered Contraption," Electrical Trap, and give it a decent chance to blow up in your face (take 20 was a mistake...), that should work fine. I would probably also make them a lot heavier, on the order of 20 lbs each instead of 0.5, to prevent overloading.
Sometimes you guys make this game way too hard.
1. Bucket of Holy water on top edge of partially open door.
2. Flask of oil dropped on floor around corner as you flee.
3. Two PC's each holding one end of a rope, waiting in hiding while 3rd PC baits and runs away from baddie.
4. Captured wild animal released into room and door closed.
5. Fire started with powder keg under the detritus burning in the fire.
6. Etc., see any Three Stooges or old Western movie for more details. This is, after all, a fantasy game. Never, ever forget that. I think ALFAn's tend to forget the fantasy part way too often. Vietnam is the wrong analogy, think Monty Python and you'd be a lot closer.
Of course, these things are very hard to do in a computer game. Personally, I loved the old BG traps, they were simple bear traps set on the ground, some with only direct damage and some with a bit of range.
I suppose technically setting a trap is a combination of skills. Obviously coming up with it in the first place if you are the inventor, building it if you are the builder, mechanically setting it, then concealing it somehow so it actually goes off on an intended enemy. Traps have been a staple in D&D since the old red book, and I think they have a place in the game. The Bioware invented traps, carried over by Obsidian, are probably best described as "tinkered contraptions" and thus should be getting built by gnome tinkerers for sale to adventurers or nobles or anyone else who wants protection. In other words, it's not such a stretch to include them in the game as is. If you want to preface all of the traps with "Gnome Tinkered Contraption," Electrical Trap, and give it a decent chance to blow up in your face (take 20 was a mistake...), that should work fine. I would probably also make them a lot heavier, on the order of 20 lbs each instead of 0.5, to prevent overloading.
Sometimes you guys make this game way too hard.
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Click for the best roleplaying!
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Forgive me if I took your meaning wrong, but in NWN2 you always have to roll a d20 for setting traps. And I believe if you fail by more than 10... kaboom! So yeah, that's actually already in there. Low level people wouldn't be using high level traps simply out of fear. (A Deadly Spike Trap after all is 25d6 damage with a 35 DC to setup I believe. Nobody will likely have them, and nobody less than lvl 15+ will be even attempting to use them.)Mulu wrote:... and give it a decent chance to blow up in your face (take 20 was a mistake...), that should work fine...
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Twin Axes
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Hey now! Remember the barn outside the walls of the Coster Fort, that we collapsed on a bunch of gobbos during the siege in SD?danielmn wrote: I have never been witness to a preplanned battlefield where traps were utilized well in advance..(major conflict)
"[T]he dwarvern people, are machine-like, and it is impossible to reason with a machine." - Susana
Ah, hadn't actually used any in NWN2. Well, then the only thing to really change is maybe weight and price. Easy peasy. I wouldn't make them craftable without a craft magic item feat, basically treat them as a minor magic item, as I believe gnome tinkered contraptions are usually treated.Kalbron wrote:Forgive me if I took your meaning wrong, but in NWN2 you always have to roll a d20 for setting traps.
Neverwinter Connections Dungeon Master since 2002!
Click for the best roleplaying!
On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
Click for the best roleplaying!
On NWVault by me:
X-INV, X-COM, War of the Worlds, Lantan University.
Sorry twin, I guess I forgot about our preplanned trap that did work quiet well!
Mulu, I understand this is a fantasy setting...and I understand the veiw that a RL use shouldn;t necessarilly equate to an IG use, I was merely giving a RL example of what trap preparations are. Yes, I agree we are here to have fun, yada yada yada....
Still I have major exeptions to traps being used last minute to incur damage...perhaps it is my own hardcore DND experience vs. your own experience (no slight at all intended). Note that it is just my own veiw, how I have played, and how I have dmed in the past.
*Goes off to build a castle in a day, for fantasy fun*
Mulu, I understand this is a fantasy setting...and I understand the veiw that a RL use shouldn;t necessarilly equate to an IG use, I was merely giving a RL example of what trap preparations are. Yes, I agree we are here to have fun, yada yada yada....
Still I have major exeptions to traps being used last minute to incur damage...perhaps it is my own hardcore DND experience vs. your own experience (no slight at all intended). Note that it is just my own veiw, how I have played, and how I have dmed in the past.
*Goes off to build a castle in a day, for fantasy fun*
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Rogues are not supposed to be assasins. If you can't fight as well as a fighter, guess what? THAT IS EXACTLY AS IT SHOULD BE.
*** ANON: has joined #channel
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
ANON: its so stupid how much power you think you have
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
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(I'm not a number cruncher of any sort but rogues feel somewhat weak in NWN combat without the edge something like traps gives them)
*** ANON: has joined #channel
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
ANON: its so stupid how much power you think you have
ANON: Mod you have to be one of the dumbest f**ks ive ever met
MOD: hows that ?
ANON: read what I said
ANON: You feel you can ban someone on a whim
MOD: i can, watch this
ANON: its so stupid how much power you think you have