class changes and balancing Again..

[JaydeMoon]

Flavored Soul

[SwordSaintMusashi]

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what I suggested we call it! Good show!

[Demson]

Savoured foul.

[Avaz]

Flavored Soul

Sounds like a cooking ingredient.

1/4 lb ground beef
1 tsp flavored soul
salt and pepper to taste

Grill and serve!

[AlmightyTDawg]

The problem with arguing from the cleric perspective is that you're arguing about D&D proper, not translation issues. I mean, if the point is that anything is allowable as long as its weaker than the cleric, then we could just start throwing random bonuses on various classes because we felt like it. If they'd given clerics sorc/wiz AB progression, or taken away heavy and shield proficiency, or taken away heavy and dropped fort save to low, I think they'd be much better - but maybe that's just me. Truth is, we can't really change that because ultimate character balance isn't anyone's true goal here - it's fidelity.

For my money, I never thought warlocks were overpowered in and of themselves - they have moderately crappy raw 1v1 damage output, and take a while to pull off decent chains or area effects. But for single-hit damage, they occupy that space between casters and non-crit, non-30-STR-fighters, and the ranged-touch attack makes them more likely to hit than fighters. What makes them weird is that they change the attrition dynamic - for the most part, characters have declining stats that force rests, retreats, and so on - for fighters, it's mostly HP, and for casters, it's mostly spells. Warlocks exist in that place where they're HP-limited, but as casters, they're most likely to be in a place where they're not going to get hit (in a moderately competent party), and can retreat and take care of themselves with decent planning (and Spellcraft Defensive Casting checks).

So while they may be one-trick, and they certainly look bad in NWN2 given the high-raw-damage output requirements for the overpowered campaign, they're gonna look real good in ALFA and be very tough to plan for once they hit the tipping point of the mid-levels. And for the most part, because ALFA is only quasi-party, the game actually adjusts to that one-trick. It's not reasonable for a DM to put a no-escape challenge in front of a warlock that they can't win simply because they are a warlock. It's the same thing with Favored Souls really. How often has a non-druid (and I wonder even with druids) in ALFA been punished because they didn't have Calm Animal memorized? What that means is that PCs can take buffout spell loads, why sorcs live, and why wizzies have three fireballs memorized by level seven and get away with it. It's why clerics have an even partly-undeserved reputation - because they can spont cast healing to cover party actions and loadout buffs for the rest.

At least in the campaigns I had pretty much identical spell loadouts between my cleric and FS, my FS could just cast more and cast more flexibly. Where the FS is weak are domains (minor), turn undead (depends on campaign), armor, and spell progression - but they are better straight up fighters and better buffers, so I think in ALFA they'll do just fine. Aside from the spell progression (which hurts you about half the levels), in ALFA I'd find FS a bit preferable - but that's not quite enough reason to nerf for me.

And back to warlocks (rambling = teh win), the major problems I have with them involve infinite combos without the eas(ier) ways of getting out of them:

NWN Haste Flee the Scene + fixed character speeds + fuzzy LOS system + server design > PnP Dimension-Door Flee the Scene + target's ability to use Run option + typically greater options to hide/evade

And the possibility of cheap multiclassing (e.g., why 3.5e moved all the cool stuff like Pally and Monk stuff to second level) is really sketchy about the Warlock. Leaps and Bounds on a straight warlock is fine considering the other incantations they've lost, but a single-level or three-level multiclass to pick up some unique abilities and almost never be fully disarmable even when captured - ugh.

At least, those are the things I'd focus on. If I had any responsibility. Which I don't, of course.

[Mikayla]

Have any of you all actually played a warlock? I played one in the SP game - a drow warlock infact. What a worthless character. Infinite ranged attacks are just not all that great in a world of sudden and decisive melee. As I hit the high levels, where the warlock was supposed to be great, I was so totally frustrated I threw in the towel and started over completely with a cleric. I know on paper the warlock looks unbalanced, but in game? Not that I've seen.

*shrugs* Just one opinion though.

[ç i p h é r]

No, I also think that there's much ado about nothing with the Warlock class. We're also not married to Flee the Scene in its current form either.

[AlmightyTDawg]

Have any of you all actually played a warlock? I played one in the SP game - a drow warlock infact. What a worthless character. Infinite ranged attacks are just not all that great in a world of sudden and decisive melee. As I hit the high levels, where the warlock was supposed to be great, I was so totally frustrated I threw in the towel and started over completely with a cleric. I know on paper the warlock looks unbalanced, but in game? Not that I've seen.

*shrugs* Just one opinion though.

It's the difference between overpowered-campaign gaming and ALFA gaming. In answer to the question, I've beat both the original campaign and the expansion with a warlock as well as about four-plus other builds each. In NWN2's campaigns, you're regularly thrown into the mix with a large number of enemies with pretty obscene HP counts but mediocre AC, attack, or both - the builds/parties that churn through it either buff your party mates out of AC/damage danger, deal out too much damage to the bad guys to matter, or both.

That's where the warlock's mediocre damage rate looks very underwhelming, because its main attack form doesn't keep up with the amount that you need to do, and also doesn't contribute much to the buffing side. But when my OC warlock dealt an average of about 25 - 30 damage/round to 2-4 enemies, and my melee builds were doing about 35-55 damage/attack with a higher crit rate, and more attacks per round, you'd burn through baddies a lot quicker. So not only was my warlock doing less by base, but he was spreading it out (which is like a tactical sin - you focus damage on one enemy at a time). It was far, far more pronounced in MotB where the crafting would put more damage elemental damage on a single weapon attack than the warlock could put out in a single casting.

But... and there's a big but here... when you take away a) the overinflated gear ACs that make melee much less dangerous, b) the overinflated HP counts combined with massed enemy numbers that put too much HP on the screen at once, and c) the overinflated gear damages that make melee more effective - all those in ALFA will re-elevate the warlock. It's not that the class is overpowered, it's just tricky to deal with and a lot, lot more dangerous than the SP campaigns would lead you to believe.

It will take someone good with the engine to make targeting and attack effective (real-time targeting is a major gripe with this game), and zone/server design to make spacing relevant, but there's a fair amount of potential there. Cipher's comment about Flee is the most important one to me, because escape/mobility is the key to actually making use of the capabilities. But like I said, it's not overall imbalance. It's just that one trick that a) potentially unbalances CvC, and b) could really mess with spawn hunting.

[Vendrin]

So punish those who abuse it, and not everyone else.

[Burt]

So punish those who abuse it, and not everyone else.

Enough of that talk!

[Mayhem]

I think people make a mistake trying to treat the Warlock as a spellcaster, vis party/campaign balance. They have a lot more in common with the fighter based PCs, with regards to what they can do.

In the traditional party of 4 (F/C/R/W) I'd swap out the Warlock for the fighter, not the wizard - assuming I had enough Dex to make up for he lack of armour.

Unfortunately, you can't practically go the melee warlock route if you wanted to, since the "blast as a melee attack" feat is not as user-friendly in NWN2 as it is in PNP...

[ç i p h é r]

In my opinion, the only legitimate issues with the Warlock class (as with all other classes) involve the NWN variations to their invocations. Flee the Scene for instance has gone from a teleport-self to haste the entire party (granting extra speed and bonus attacks to everyone). On the other hand, their invocation list is much much smaller than what's available in PnP, so I think that's something we need to address as well. What can we implement that OE did not.

This sort of "rebalancing" or, really "reconfiguring" to return a class to its intended form (or nearest approximation), I think is perfectly reasonable. Arbitrary discussions about whether or not the class deals too much damage (or is "too powerful") in any given scenario should not, I think, be the subject of discussion. What constitutes "too much" is subjective and once we go down that road, everyone can find something to nit pick with just about any class. The focus needs to be strictly on the deviations and how we should deal with them.

The designers at WotC have gone to great lengths to balance out these classes, and even then, they are not "perfectly balanced". They never will be, regardless of the format of the game, and I think that's perfectly fine. Nobody has to play a bard, or a cleric, or a wizard, or a warlock. Play what you think you'll have fun roleplaying and that's it. That's D&D.

[Munmun]

Obsidian fucked up a lot of the warlock stuff. Most notable is how hideous blow is absolutely useless as it is in NWN2.

Here is a Hideous Blow fix that makes it as close to D&D as you will get. When you cast the invocation you go into a sort of "Hideous Blow mode" which reduces your attacks to one per round and adds the blast damage to your attack.

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NW ... ail&id=320



I support any measure taken to bring Warlocks closer to D&D. I don't see why Flee the Scene couldn't be turned back into a sight teleport.

[Mulu]

But... and there's a big but here... when you take away a) the overinflated gear ACs that make melee much less dangerous, b) the overinflated HP counts combined with massed enemy numbers that put too much HP on the screen at once, and c) the overinflated gear damages that make melee more effective - all those in ALFA will re-elevate the warlock.

Well, and that's why all casters get a bump in ALFA, low magic gear, and that's why clerics win, since they are casters who get melee fighter gear which they can then buff to high magic gear, best of both worlds. The rest of their abilities are just gravy, and the point remains: If you are nerfing for balance (and Veilan uses the CvC argument every time he proposes a nerf) remember the cleric....

Unless something is grossly, game-breakingly exploitable, I see no good reason to waste resources on nerfing it. Adding things to the game, great, love it, best use of resources possible. But when I read that a bard inspiration that gives him a +2 skill buff is "overpowered" I cringe. OMG, he got an extra +2 on that perform roll! Exploiter! MS/HS is out for bards now that they get medium armor. Better to have the AC, and high dex builds aren't terribly feasible, meaning that +2 inspiration buff is up against a -3 armor penalty at least. So, where's the exploit? You can't match the game to PnP, and even if you could it probably wouldn't be advisable because NWN2 and ALFA in particular is not the same environment as PnP. Heck, Veilan went so far as to say ALFA isn't trying to simulate PnP.... I'm not sure what the point is then of using PnP comparisons.

Standards is starting to remind me of the Tennessee Valley Authority. Having fulfilled it's purpose with wealth standards (running power lines to rural folk), it now strives to find a reason for its continued existence.

[Mikayla]

cipher is teh wise. I plus-one his most smart words. And mulu too, cause he is teh wise sometimes, and this be one of those times.