Plane Touched Proposal Discussion

This is a general open discussion for all ALFA, Neverwinter Nights, and Dungeons & Dragons topics.

Moderator: ALFA Administrators

User avatar
Wynna
Dungeon Master
Posts: 5734
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:09 am
Location: Seattle, WA (PST)

Plane Touched Proposal Discussion

Post by Wynna »

My thanks to Thangorn and Rusty, respectively, for the two parts of this presentation. I'd like to discuss both halves among the wider membership and hammer out a possible treatment for Admin vote.
Thangorn wrote:“The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step..” Lao Tzu

What in the hells are plane-touched?
Quite simply plane-touched are any being with the blood of an outsider somewhere in their bloodline. This can include deities, elementals, demons, devas, eladrins, genies, whatever. Lets make a clear distinction here between plane-touched and half-fiends. Plane-touched are not Cambions, Alu-fiends, Draegloths or any other race is that is a direct product of a union between a human/mortal race and an outsider. It just means somewhere way back in the past, great-great-great-great grandmammy/grandpappy got jiggy with an outsider.

Plane-touched in the Forgotten Realms
Most plane-touched bloodlines in the realms are ancient. From the genies of Calimshan, to the deities of Mulhorand, to the demons and devils summoned by powerful sorcerors, ancient plane-touched bloodlines run through many different regions of Faerun. Most of these bloodlines come from the Old Empires which are not due to be supported in the first initial ALFA servers that go live however trade centres like Waterdeep, Skullport and Zhentil Keep are certainly fertile ground for plane-touched characters.

How does this proposal address plane-touched implementation on ALFA?
In Forgotten Realms canon, there are literally hundreds of potential different types of plane-touched bloodlines.
Known Planetouched Races
• Aasimar (humans descended from celestial beings)
• Azerblood (Faerunian Planetouched descended from Shield Dwarves and Azers)
• Axani (descended from lawful beings)
• Cansin (descended from chaotic beings)
• Celadrin (Faerunian Planetouched descended from Elves and Eladrin (usually Firre))
• Chaond (descended from Slaad)
• D'hin'ni (Faerunian Planetouched descended from Lightfoot Halflings and D'jinn)
• Fey'ri (elves with fiendish blood)
• Genasi (descended from elementals)
• Glimmerfolk (descended from beings of radiant energy)
• Maeluth (dwarves with devilish blood)
• Mechanatrix (descended from clockwork creatures of Mechanus)
• Mephling (similar to genasi but descended from mephits)
• Para-genasi (dust, ice, magma, ooze, smoke, steam)
• Shadowswyft (descended from creatures from the Plane of Shadow)
• Shyft (descended from one of the native races of the Ethereal Plane)
• Tanarukk (Orcs descended from demons)
• Tiefling (humans descended from fiendish beings)
• Wispling (halflings descended from demons)
• Worghest (Faerunian Plantouched descended from Goblins and Barghests)
• Zenythri (descended from lawful beings)
In the interest of starting small and slow, this proposal only deals with less monstrous and/or weird and wonderful looking plane-touched. Initially this proposal, being a way map for a beta-test implementation will only deal with only the most popular plane-touched player race, tieflings.

Enough BS. Get to the point.
The focus of this proposal is a plane-touched test for the most popularly requested player race. Why do I believe it is the most popular? With 4th Edition D&D around the corner, races like gnomes have been dropped from the initial race offering in favour of tieflings. No other plane-touched races are in the initial offering. I have no intention of doing the market research myself and it is purely an educated guess, but that would seem to indicate a general trend toward tieflings over the other races.

Also from my own personal experience, I’ve been playing PnP and online DnD for nearly 20 years. The only plane-touched race any of my players have ever asked to play? You guessed it, tieflings.

The canon of my module region, The Moonsea, provides fertile possibilities for the existence of tiefling player characters. It is my view that it would be easiest to integrate necessary infrastructure for these races into the module and showcase what might be possible for other plane-touched races without giving them an advantage (aside from their canon abilities) or disadvantage (aside from LA) over .

The intention is to show that a gradual implementation, one race at a time, would be a far better option than trying to tackle all plane-touched at once. Let us deal with attendant issues on a race-by-race basis for all plane-touched LA races. Take small bites to make them easier to digest, rather than trying to eat the whole buffet so to speak.

What am I proposing exactly?
I’m proposing that rather than automatically deny plane-touched PCs because its all to hard or automatically accept plane-touched PCs just because players want them, that we take a more moderate approach. Actually run a test and thereby make an informed decision about plane-touched.

The structure of the proposed test would be as follows.

We start the test by only working with tieflings, to reduce the amount of time required to pull the scripting together. There is a sizeable amount of work involved of course but not nearly as much as one might think if we approach it intelligently, one race at a time.

Firstly I’d like to address some of the issues that have been raised by ALFA administrators and community members regarding the implementation of plane-touched PCs.

PC models
Some plane-touched can actually pass as relatively normal humans according to canon. It is for this reason that I believe that the available human models should be allowed for plane-touched characters. These could be packaged in a hak file however haks are not yet available in character creation at this time.

Tieflings have a range of different “mutations”, some of which can be cosmetically subtle. This from “Races of Faerun” -:

Tieflings look human except for one or two distinguishing features related to their unusual ancenstry. Some examples of these features (and the ancestor that causes them) are:
• Small horns on the head (demon, devil, night hag) – already in PC models
• Fangs or pointed teeth – already in PC models
• Forked tongue (demon, devil) – RP mutation only
• Glowing red eyes (demon, devil, night hag) – Scripted effect implementation
• Cat eyes (rakshasa) – already in PC models
• More or less than 5 fingers (demon, devil) – rare and not worth implementing, RP if the player really wants this mutation
• Goatlike legs (devil) – models exist, hakkable
• Hooves (devil) – models exists, hakkable
• Non-prehensile tail (demon, devil) – models exist, hakkable
• Furry, leathery or scaly skin (demon, devil, rakshasa) – Add colours via hak and RP it
• Red skin (demon, devil) – already in PC models
• Bruised blue skin (night hag) – already in PC models

For the beta test, if haks were not available at character creation, if a Tiefling was deemed to have a low WF Rating (see below) according to their bio, then they may be able to create their character using the human race template and be given a tiefling undroppable, usable ECL object by a DM similar to NWN1 implementation.

WF Rating
As discussed earlier, tieflings have a range of different “mutations”, some of which can be cosmetically subtle.

All plane-touched PCs need to have their bio scruntinised and accepted by the DMs before rolling them up, “mutations” need to be determined at this time. I believe it is best that when a plane-touched PC bio is submitted that a “Weirdness Factor” rating be agreed upon by the DM and the player.

This WF rating would describe how easy it would be to recognise the PC as plane-touched. For the purposes of this test, the WF rating would define how easy it would be to recognise the PCs fiendish heritage. The WF rating could be up to 20 and would be a modifier to add to/subtract from the DC ratings on reactions with NPCs. Charisma and Disguise would be mitigating factors.

This rating would underpin many of the scripted aspects of playing a Plane-touched PC including -: disguises, NPC conversation reactions, repulsion spawning scripts, KOS spawning scripts and PT haven scripts.

Initial implementation of the WF rating for the beta test would be through a DM wand or DM GUI widget. This would be a persistent integer set upon the PC and referred to by the PT NPC reaction scripts outlined below.

Disguise skill
A lot of the my Beta test of tiefling implementation would be underpinned by the ALFA custom skill disguise that AcadiusLost has been working on. I understand the implementation is not yet perfected, but I hope that this test also plays host to some possibilities for what we can do with the disguise skill on our modules. For some ECL races, Disguise skill or magics that can duplicate it will mean survival.

NPC scripts
The key scripts to implement here are involved in conversations when a PT PC talks to them. It’s a simple matter of deciding during module creation whether a specific NPC might react differently to plane-touched through an On-Perception event type script that would set a variable upon the NPC which would be accessed through their conversation. In a lot of cases, the body of work here would be variant conversations or extra conversation branches for tieflings. It would be something that all module builders would need to consider for every NPC conversation they write.
I have in mind to create simple, well commented on-perception event and conversation scripts that will work for tieflings and could be adapted for other plane-touched just by changing a variable on the NPC. The main tasks that would take time though would be writing the conversations.

KOS scripts
This is actually one of the easier scripts to implement. I am using KOS as a blanket description for guard approach scripts, detainment scripts and KOS scripts. Most plane-touched wouldn’t be KOS as drow might, but if recognised as PT in certain areas the script might fire like this -:
1. On-perception event detects PT
2. NPC guard approach fires
3. Conversation force fires leading to questioning
4. Conversation is broken or conversation thread leads to subdual combat
5. If subdual combat is a loss and detention scripts fire.
6. Character is detained until a DM is on. Yes that might suck but so does rerolling due to a kobold (or chicken) spawn. Tell me which is the lesser of two evils.
This test will give me the opportunity to work on these scripts for all my cities and in cases like Hillsfar, Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster, guards might just decide they don’t like the look of you even if you are human!

Whether I work the KOS scripts through the faction system or work another race-specific system I’m not sure yet and will involve discussion with the tech team as to the most workable ALFA-wide option.

Repulsion Scripts
Once again these can be based on WF, Cha and Disguise. Its really just an on-perception event for NPCs that are skittish. I can easily recycle and tweak Teric’s scripts from the OAS2 creatures here and just have them fire differently On-Perception.

Areas for plane-touched enclaves
I prefer to refer to them as “havens”, “enclave” seems to say that plane-touched require communities of plane-touched apart from others (examples of such might be Fey-Ri or Tannarukks which I have no intention of making available for PCs) where as I prefer to think that many live right under the noses of the general populace. I believe plane-touched need “havens” to retreat to but realistically whole societies of plane-touched PCs are not going to be implemented.

For the purposes of the test and future implementation, a tiefling with decent disguise and a low WF they can potentially mingle anywhere. If a PC really wants to play a high WF tiefling (it should be noted, I can’t think of many ALFAns who would want to play characters that can’t socialise) they are going to be quite restricted to havens and wilderness areas and places where they are taken for their own merits and not their race.
In terms of where we might find these on The Moonsea -:
• Zhentil Keep Ruins. There are thousands of strays in this area. High WF Tieflings may have been one of the few races left alone by the fiendish and monstrous invaders so we might expect some to survive in the Ruins.
• Humanoid Bar in Zhentil Keep. There is an entire canon pub full of goblins, orcs, kobolds, gnolls, minotaurs, etc. Tieflings and drow might be the only LA races that might get left alone by the rest of the patrons for a time, at least once they killed someone who bothered them.
• Ruins and lonely farms on the edge of Cormanthor. I’m sure that some fiendish heritage in the bloodline could have been passed down from the days of Myth Drannor and kept secret by some human dales families.
• Almost anywhere in Zhentil Keep with a low WF tiefling and reasonable disguise. Some High-level Zhentarim in the know may still be jumpy about Lord Orgauth (the ex-lord who turned out to be a pit-fiend, now banished.. hopefully) and may have agents on the look out though. This might be an opportunity to bring a tiefling into the Zhentarim (or perhaps slavery if they refuse ).

The Beta-test Schedule
This is an outline of the schedule I would work to. I expect full implementation to take around 3 months but I would be able to start work on this the moment I have a new monitor.

• Meet with tech team to discuss proposal and current systems that can be adapted.
While I am certain that I could do the whole thing on my own given time, I have a module to build and run and I want to make sure anything I do is ALFA compliant, supports tech goals and can be applied to other areas of ALFA including the possibilities for future race implementation.

The complete scripting design may take a few sessions and I am keen that only decisions to be ratified by admin and definite clear plans for implementation come from these meetings. I estimate these meetings and drawing out minuted decisions to be ratified and actions will take approximately 6-8 hours in total.
o Key agenda items -:
  • For the beta test it is unlikely that human PC features will be available for the the tiefling. Discuss implementation strategy and -:
    • undroppable LA tokens which hold their special abilities,
    • skin colouration,
    • undroppable model “masks”.
  • Current tech projects: Disguise skill implementation and submission implementation and how I can assist to get these working.
  • WF Rating implementation
  • Systems I can scavenge and implementation for NPC conversation scripts, KOS scripts and repulsion scripts.
  • Future game updates that might break things and how I/we handle it
Hours to complete: approx. 8 hours for meetings and minuted decisions to be ratified, plans to implement and actions to be carried out.
Final result: A complete technical plan that is 100% ALFA compliant and workable (at least on paper, we’ll see what happens once we start testing).

• Scripting and hakking human NPC features.
This depends on what solution we decide on technically and for me this seems to be the toughest since it involves haks and new models. I put my hand up to do this but I will be needing an hour of technical support from the tech team per week. I understand this is a big commitment but I would suggest that once a week if the tech team is open to it, I meet with one of the tech staff at an agreed upon time to discuss what I am doing. The hours required for me to script/hak things up should be as follows -:
  • Undroppable LA Token scripting – I intend to scavenge and refit so it wont take too long. (8 hours)
  • Skin colouration – I have no idea how to do this yet. That has never stopped me before and I am sure there is a way. This is more research than scripting, once I know which way I am going to do this, it should be a lot easier. (20 hours at a guess)
  • Model “masks” – This involves either taking the provided human head models or tiefling head models and turning them into helmet items that cover the head. Its not going to be perfect but it will do for the beta-test. These helmet items will displace when a helmet or hood is put on and replace when the helmet or hood is removed. Since tieflings tend to be rogues and sorcerors I hope we wont see too many problems with helmets screwing up immersion. I actually think that going forward we’ll be able to add human heads into tiefling character creation so this wont be a problem going forward. (20 hours or so to test and make it work)
Total hours to complete: 50 hours
Final result: A workable model system for tieflings that aren’t that crazy looking.

• PTWF (Plane-touched Weirdness Factor) framework scripting
This is an agreed upon number, expressed as a persistent integer set by a DM object script or GUI application on the PC on their first log-in. It is a penalty that will apply to NPC reactions depending on the tolerance of the society.

So not only is the WF integer stored on a PC it must be applied to each member of the society they enter. My suggestion is that a tolerance modifier is a persistently stored integer on any given area that is built and is accessed by the rest of the scripts. We assume maximum tolerance if the area does not have a tolerance modifier to save builders time. A DM should be able to modify tolerance on an area through the same widget that changes WF.

This doesn’t sound too tough to me so I’ll allow 8 hours to script it. To me this isn’t “extra” work as I wanted a strong faction system on the server so if this works I’ll be able to use parts of it to fashion the faction reactions system.

Total hours: 8 hours
Final result: A workable WF system that will mean that NPCs treat plane-touched appropriately to their society.

• Disguise skill scripting
This system will be based on the disguise skill that Acadius has been working on so I will need to discuss with him how this will play out fully. I envisage creating a basic disguise kit item, to conceal the features that will be consumed on the use of the disguise skill and will keep the PC disguised until they next log in, although each combat should rightly have a chance of dislodging parts of the disguise.

On a successful disguise check, the PC will gain an increase in the tolerance factor of an area which means that he/she might not get locked up, beaten up or avoided for a period of time. Even an unsuccessful check should allow a PTPC (plane-touched PC) to conceal their appearance somewhat depending on how badly they fail.

Obviously we can implement illusion spells that will serve the same purpose down the track. But for the purposes of testing, I believe this will suffice.

Total hours: 12 hours
Final result: A workable disguise system that allows plane-touched (and certain other LA races) to hide their features.

• Submission scripting
This was already undertaken by Ronan and I intend to take it apart and put it back together again unless someone else is already doing it. In which case it will save me time spent on this.

My thought on this is that PCs can choose submission damage or choose to remove it with a key stroke. If a PC and an NPC are in submission combat it will stay that way unless a PC chooses to go lethal again in which case, the NPCs damage will change aswell.

Total hours: 12 hours
Final result: A workable submission system that allows NPCs and PCs to do submission damage.

• NPC conversation branches and associated scripts
These will be scripts that will check for the “distance” between the perceived WF and the tolerance of the society. For intolerant areas a number of talk strings will be prepared “Get out of my Inn foul demon! CALL THE GUARDS!!” which will then kick off either a repulsion, a delayed guard spawn at the door or outside or KOS script or all of the above. This part of the plan is difficult to quantify since in Beta 2 it will just be a matter of me attaching these scripts to the NPCs I need to which will pretty much be every merchant.

If the NPC reaction roll is “failed” a completely different conversation other than the default conversation might be chosen. The main part of this is in testing but since I want drow in Zhentil Keep, I really want to ensure this works. So I am not just working on it for plane-touched.

Total hours: 12 to lay down the basics for testing. Ongoing maintenance and testing is however required to finish this.
Final result: A “realistic” (and I use the term loosely) responsive environment for plane-touched which can be applied to other races and factions.

• KOS scripts
These are straight forward. I’ve written them before and I want them on my module anyway. The component parts again -:
1. On-perception event detects PT
2. NPC guard approach fires
3. Conversation force fires leading to questioning
4. Conversation is broken or conversation thread leads to subdual combat
5. If subdual combat is a loss and detention scripts fire.
6. Character is detained until a DM is on or some other condition is met (time elapses, character escapes, etc.).
7. For future reference if the PC escapes. This will affect their faction reputation with guards’ faction perhaps leading to lethal combat on recognition.

Total hours: 12 hours for refit and implementation
Final result: Guards that question people, beat them up and lock them away for an appropriate reason.

• Repulsion scripts
These already exist on the OAS and all I have to do is refit them to the task. Seems simple enough.

Total hours: 6 hours
Final result: Skittish people who perceive a PTPC will run away quickly and despawn somewhere.

• Build and script haven areas
Involves building 4 areas which I will be building anyway. My planned havens are -:
o Ruined house basement
o Zhentil Keep sewer haven
o Abandoned Farm
o The Burst Boil Tavern
There are other places where a tiefling’s race wont matter if they are member of the faction these include -: The Black Star Coven (warlock cult), ZK Thieves Guild, ZK Mages guild, ZK Warriors guild, any of the churches, the Zhentarim, the Lolthian drow, etc. In some cases this will mean that the tolerance factor of some areas will increase for a member of some factions. I don’t plan to implement this functionality until after the PT Beta test has begun.

I have to script havens for drow and any race that is not human in Hillsfar anyway so this works out fine.

Total hours: 20 hours
Final result: 4 fully scripted interiors with spawns that tieflings can retreat to with out fear of getting pwned.

• Assess static content for tieflings is balanced against other races
During the beta 2 test it will be required that I assess whether PT can access as much static content as other races and are thereby not advantaged or disadvantaged more than they are already.

• Script required static content
Unless I identify there is a need for this. I’m not going to do it but I will apply any work I do on this to other LA races as well.

• 3 month Beta 2 test
This will be a review of logs, player “interviews” and how smoothly we find plane-touched run on the server. In the beta test I want as many testers as I can get to run PT characters, I’m thinking if I can get 3 testers through 1/week for 3 months. During this time I’ll DM them and any others (since I need to see how mixed parties will work) at least every two weeks and see how it plays out and collect all my data in a report which I will deliver to admin covering the key concerns discussed by the community and admin and how well the test covered them. The report will also address any considerations admin want me to look/test for.

Scripting Labour Hours
At least 132 hours in total with my scripting ability. That will take me roughly 12 weeks to complete with my schedule but it is not much work I wasn’t going to be doing anyway. Heaps of the systems except the 50 hours on PC models, I was going to build for Beta 3 anyway.

I can make a start on this as soon as I have a monitor for my build rig which will be in the next month or so.

DM perception that plane-touched are a problem to deal with?
I don’t know until I do the test but I can tell you I’ve already DMed pariah-type characters in ALFA, they were hard-work and they weren’t even plane-touched! I don’t see how plane-touched can make things any harder than rampant, highly imaginative roleplayers of any type .

DM strain will be one of the key criteria in my report and I’d like to see whether the perception has any merit.

ZOMG plane-touched are overrunning my servar!!!
My take on this is to set an ALFA-wide limit of a minimum 1 per 8-10 active players on the server, but I think this one should be left up to the HDMs as to whether they allow more on their server or what WF is acceptable for their campaigns. The more active players, the more plane-touched should rightly be allowed.
All plane-touched would need to go through a bio approval process before rolling and may be asked to tone down certain aspects of their character to meet a WF that the HDM and DM team deem as acceptable.
That’s just my opinion and its not really something you can test but I’d advocate setting stringent limits and allowing HDMs the leeway to accept more.

I think under the circumstances it is important that PT who want to travel contact the HDMs of any server they are travelling to much as you would do if you wanted your human character to go to Menzoberranzan. I do believe that the HDM of the server they are travelling to should have the power to deny access to PT characters for appropriate reasons. I’m not sure what those reasons might be but I think “our PT limit is exceeded so no thank you” is an acceptable reason.

Conclusion
In short I feel that beta-testing a contentious issue such as PT is the way forward. It increases the workload more than just saying no but it can also inspire those who are passionate about an issue to get onboard and direct their enthusiasm.

I feel that the time frames stated here are realistic and I believe the information gathered by such a test will allow us to know the best way forward on PT. Perhaps we will decide that they really do require too much work to implement properly in the short term and look at a longer term approach. At any rate, I am an advocate of player choice as long as they back up their choices. If I don’t get enough testers out of this, I’d say we pull the pin.

Considering I am thin on builders too, I am hoping that at least one of these vocal proponents of plane-touched PCs steps up to the plate and offers to give me a hand with the Moonsea. In this way we can advance the test so much more quickly.

I hope this proposal has not been too much of a heavy read and that you are happy with the content. Please feel free to ask me for any further clarifications or offer me criticisms.
And from Rusty:
Rusty wrote:Extraordinary Characters

While all PCs are different, players may, at times, wish to make a PC that benefits to an extraordinary degree from their background. Commonly, this might be an unusual race or a specific link to the canon history of the Forgotten Realms. The desirability of players being able to introduce such interesting and rewarding concepts into our game-world is well recognised. However, there is also a competing need to ensure that such concepts are treated in both a consistent and balanced matter. In recognition of these demands, a pre-creation screening mechanism has been put in place. All players wishing to play an Extraordinary Character are required to submit a biography of their PC for approval, prior to creation.

What is an Extraordinary Character?

There are two basic types of PCs that qualify as being Extraordinary:

* PCs with a significant canon history; and,
* LA race PCs.

Significant Canon History

This category is intended to cover any PC who has a link to the canon history of the FR that is likely to provide significant in-game benefit. Thus, it is not intended to include a PC who has links to a canon organisation, but it would be intended to include a PC who was a relation to a significant NPC.

Example: the biography of PC B, a rogue, states that he spent his teenage years running in a street gang controlled by the Shadow Thieves of Amn. After a falling-out with the gang’s boss, he fled to Waterdeep, at which point the PC is Live. There is no need for this PC to get pre-creation approval; the biography adds flavour and motive to the character without loading him with any significant advantage

Example: the biography of PC C, a ranger, states that he spent his teenage years running in an adventuring crew including King Bruenor and Drizzt Do’Urden. He maintains a friendly relationship with both NPCs. There is clearly a need for this PC to get pre-creation approval; the biography, while adding flavour and motive to the character, clearly represents a potentially game-changing benefit for the PC, the merits of which would have to be carefully assessed.

LA Race PCs

While ALFA permits the creation of LA race PCs, a full list of which can be found [link], in recognition of both the special canon significance of these races and the special game mechanic benefits that they gain, pre-creation biographical approval is needed. The purpose of the biography in this case is to demonstrate that the player of the intended LA race PC has a proper understanding of their chosen race, and – particularly – their place in the Realms.

Example: the biography of PC D, a svirfneblin, details his flight, as a young child, from the ruin of Blingdenstone, to the surface, his capture by slavers, eventual escape, and current arrival in Waterdeep. His reactions to life on the surface and, in particular, his deep suspicion of all other people are recounted, as are his motivation for his new life, which is now focussed on trying to find a suitable new home for the deep gnome people and gathering what survivors he can locate to bring them there. He has chosen Waterdeep as he has heard that it has the greatest collection of different peoples and races in all of Faerun and he proposes to make a start to his search there. This biography is well-researched and plausible, demonstrating an understanding of the nature of deep gnomes and their place in the Realms and might be accepted.

Example: the biography of PC E, a drow, details his flight from inter-house warfare in the Underdark to the surface, where he settled in Beregost, converted to the worship of Ellistraee, before heading for Waterdeep to preach in her name. Little or no comment is made on, for instance, the difference between life in the matriarch, theocratic drow society of the Underdark and surface society, or how he was able to settle peaceably in a surface town. This biography lacks an appreciation of the place of surface drow in the Realms, the near-total mistrust surface races have for them, and facts such as the denial/ignorance of Ellistraee’s existence by almost all surface society and should properly be rejected.

Applying

A player wishing to play an Extraordinary Character must submit a biography to the HDM of the server on which they wish to create their character prior to creation. That biography should explain how and why they are an Extraordinary Character, and be accompanied by a statement of what being allowed to play an Extraordinary Character will bring to that server and ALFA.

Reviewing

In order to promote inter-server consistency, decisions about Extraordinary Characters will be taken on an ALFA-wide basis. To that end, if the HDM receiving the application would be prepared to have that PC created on the server for which they are responsible, they may bring it before the HDM corps for discussion. The Extraordinary Character will be approved or not on the basis of a HDM vote. The support of a majority of HDMs will constitute approval.

An application may be rejected in two manners. Firstly, the HDM corps may outright reject the application, in which case re-application is not encouraged. Alternatively, the HDM corps may highlight areas in which the application could be improved, and the player may be given an opportunity to submit an amended biography for reconsideration.

Example: the biography of PC F, a tiefling, identifies a named arch-devil as being the PC’s father. Although the rest of the biography is of good quality and demonstrates the knowledge and understanding required for approval, the HDM corps are unhappy with the proposed blood relationship with an NPC of near-divine power. The application is rejected, but with the proviso that an amended application – with a different ‘father’ – might be accepted. The player may then consider whether they wish to re-apply.

Criteria

The following criteria will guide HDM decisions on Extraordinary Character applications:

* player knowledge of the appropriate Realms canon;
* application of that knowledge to their particular PC concept;
* explanation of how the concept will fit into the selected server;
* recognition of the potential pitfalls on the selected server;
* relative frequency of Extraordinary Characters on the selected server;
* relative frequency of Extraordinary Characters across ALFA;
* prior knowledge of the player; and,
* any other reasonable considerations.
Enjoy the game
User avatar
Evro
Brown Bear
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:54 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, US
Contact:

Re: Plane Touched Proposal Discussion

Post by Evro »

Very well thought out presentations guys.


This has always been my biggest worry--
Thangorn wrote: ZOMG plane-touched are overrunning my servar!!!
Putting some serious limitations in place would certainly ease my own fears regarding PT PCs.
User avatar
Wynna
Dungeon Master
Posts: 5734
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:09 am
Location: Seattle, WA (PST)

Post by Wynna »

All right, I'll kick off the discussion. I've had two sentiments privately expressed to me.

1) There are potential tech limitations to the proposal, until haks are able to load at character creation. For the less technically savvy among us, I'd be interested in seeing those reasons enumerated and discussed.

2) Including LA PCs in the 'approval needed prior to creation' bucket seems a contradiction to our current way of handling LA without such approval needed. I'd like to hear from people about what they feel about LA & PT race bios.

Thanks in advance for any input.
Enjoy the game
Zelknolf
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 6139
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:04 pm

Post by Zelknolf »

1) There are potential tech limitations to the proposal, until haks are able to load at character creation. For the less technically savvy among us, I'd be interested in seeing those reasons enumerated and discussed.
If we can hak something, we can override it, too. Overrides don't present the "will it load at character creation?" problem. Minimal extra work to doing this, as well, as the work is just one of organizing and distributing the resources for what, specifically, we're trying to do (unless we expect custom talk table entries, in which case we've some tricky business.)
2) Including LA PCs in the 'approval needed prior to creation' bucket seems a contradiction to our current way of handling LA without such approval needed. I'd like to hear from people about what they feel about LA & PT race bios.
It seems a little overkill to ask for complete bios for every LA PC, but it tends to be a good idea to talk to an HDM if a character concept isn't "My character is a young (man | woman) whose parents (are dead | disappeared | threw him/her out) and he/she has come to (server) to try to make his/her way." -- the importance of discussing the concept obviously becomes greater the farther from that quintessential chaotic neutral "adventurer" characters.

So, perhaps asking for rationale and approval, and perhaps asking for a bio if the character survives (perhaps complete bio in and approved before the character is approved for level 4? Such seems to be the custom for all characters, but it seems feasible to put more scrutiny to those more exotic PCs.) would be more worth while, especially given how much work it is to produce a complete character bio.
Veilan
Lead Admin
Posts: 6152
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:33 pm
Location: UTC+1
Contact:

Post by Veilan »

I'm principally opposed to a system that limits playing "special" races to "special" players.

At the same time, I acknowledge the reality of having to have a handle should interest in "funky" races prove to be higher than is comfortable to DMs or majority mainstream ALFA players.



Expressing my personal opinion on LA / PT, I think having everyone start at ECL 2, allowing no starting level above, would be a solid, elegant, simple and fair genuine compromise.
The power of concealment lies in revelation.
User avatar
Rotku
Iron Fist Tyrant
Posts: 6948
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:09 am
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Rotku »

I'm honestly not a big fan of having a review pannel (HDMs) for each single Extraordinary character created. It's a layer of paperwork which really doesn't achieve much. I would like to think that passing a standard bio by ANY DM should be enough. There's no need for an interrogation.

"What will my extraordinary character bring to ALFA?" Surely just it giving the player a bit of fun, without negatively impacting anyone else, should be plenty.
< Signature Free Zone >
Thangorn
Haste Bear
Posts: 2081
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:00 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Thangorn »

Wynna wrote:1) There are potential tech limitations to the proposal, until haks are able to load at character creation. For the less technically savvy among us, I'd be interested in seeing those reasons enumerated and discussed.
This is actually already dealt with in my proposal and the short-term solution is technically viable.
I wrote:• Scripting and hakking human NPC features.
This depends on what solution we decide on technically and for me this seems to be the toughest since it involves haks and new models. I put my hand up to do this but I will be needing an hour of technical support from the tech team per week. I understand this is a big commitment but I would suggest that once a week if the tech team is open to it, I meet with one of the tech staff at an agreed upon time to discuss what I am doing. The hours required for me to script/hak things up should be as follows -:

* Undroppable LA Token scripting – I intend to scavenge and refit so it wont take too long. (8 hours)
* Skin colouration – I have no idea how to do this yet. That has never stopped me before and I am sure there is a way. This is more research than scripting, once I know which way I am going to do this, it should be a lot easier. (20 hours at a guess)
* Model “masks” – This involves either taking the provided human head models or tiefling head models and turning them into helmet items that cover the head. Its not going to be perfect but it will do for the beta-test. These helmet items will displace when a helmet or hood is put on and replace when the helmet or hood is removed. Since tieflings tend to be rogues and sorcerors I hope we wont see too many problems with helmets screwing up immersion. I actually think that going forward we’ll be able to add human heads into tiefling character creation so this wont be a problem later on. (20 hours or so to test and make it work)
Wynna wrote:2) Including LA PCs in the 'approval needed prior to creation' bucket seems a contradiction to our current way of handling LA without such approval needed. I'd like to hear from people about what they feel about LA & PT race bios.
My take on this is..

If you want the module to respond appropriately to your character, any character, sometimes you are going to have to seek DM engagement for it. For example, If you want a noble native to the server, dont you go to the DMs to discuss the character?

I dont know about the rest of you, but if I am making a PC that will require a higher degree of DM input I go and seek support for the character first or there is no point in playing it as you will never be able to get proper immersion for your concept.

Treat it like paperwork and beauracracy if you want but to me its just common sense to tell the DMs what you intend on playing and have them guide you to where the character could fit into the server's campaign.

All I'm trying to do is offer a road map for how people can express their concept. You might aswell give DMs an opportunity to do their jobs properly straight away rather than spring it on them and make more work for them down the track..
On indefinite real life hiatus

[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
User avatar
Rotku
Iron Fist Tyrant
Posts: 6948
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:09 am
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Rotku »

Surely there's a big difference between telling the DMs what you're doing and needing an HDM vote on it?
< Signature Free Zone >
paazin
Fionn In Disguise
Posts: 3544
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:07 am
Location: UTC +2
Contact:

Post by paazin »

Hope I won't be flamed for saying this but I find KOS scripts to be, well, just bad.

Baldur's Gate was flooded with them and they ended up causing more than a little bit of grief, especially when someone ended up going AFK with a mage staff or beer stein out.

I inherently don't trust them as they aren't a suitable replacement for a DM and lots of things that are possible with a DM around just aren't feasible when a NPC magically detects the PC as a problem and deals with it without accounting for all the various rolls, feasibility, etc. Not to mention a plethora of OOC reasons why a PC might need to be in the radius of a KOC NPC (server/map layout, etc.)


I understand a good many people would want this, but aren't there better things for scripters to be working on? We've still a good amount of work to do until ALFA2's scripts are in fine working order... IMO, serious discussion on this is premature.
People talk of bestial cruelty, but that's a great injustice and insult to the beasts; a beast can never be so cruel as man, so artistically cruel.
Thangorn
Haste Bear
Posts: 2081
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:00 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Thangorn »

Rotku wrote:Surely there's a big difference between telling the DMs what you're doing and needing an HDM vote on it?
Mine and Rusty's proposals are not the same proposal to avoid confusion..
On indefinite real life hiatus

[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
User avatar
psycho_leo
Rust Monster
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 am
Location: Brazil

Post by psycho_leo »

paazin wrote:Hope I won't be flamed for saying this but I find KOS scripts to be, well, just bad.
You're not alone.
Current PC: Gareth Darkriver, errant knight of Kelemvor
Se'rie Arnimane: Time is of the essence!
Nawiel Di'malie: Shush! we're celebrating!
User avatar
Rotku
Iron Fist Tyrant
Posts: 6948
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:09 am
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Rotku »

Ah, sorry Thangorn. I thought Rusty's was merely expanding on your 'Bio approval process'.
< Signature Free Zone >
User avatar
Brokenbone
Chosen of Forumamus, God of Forums
Posts: 5771
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 1:07 am
Location: London, Ontario, Canada

Post by Brokenbone »

I do like the "Extraordinariness" related proposal, as it covers not just the funny race thing, but also "anything else funny which might not relate to raw numerical power." I.e., it's not that your PC can turn invisible at will or resist spells, but, he's a member of the Order of the Flaming Moe, and can expect Moesketeer aid in key canon strongholds, such as may be represented on a given bit of server turf.

One needs to check in with DMs that the vision is shared as to where an extraordinary character can or should fit in. Dialogue is good. If the local DMs say "your PC can walk openly in the slums and the docks without attracting undue attention, but stay out of the operahouse or this duergar hating dwarf town if without a DM...", well, there you go.

Any extraordinary biographies do need a bit of scrutiny. The scrutiny coming from more than one person seems to help avoid perception of bias. A single DM minting "my momma was a Harper!" PCs day and night or "poppa trained me in Thay" might not be appreciated by other members of the DM corps who have poorly thought out concepts wash up on their shores (dear DM, I am accustomed to buying discount magic items from my overseas Thayan relatives, here's 1000gp, chop chop).
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

DMA Staff
User avatar
Rotku
Iron Fist Tyrant
Posts: 6948
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:09 am
Location: New Zealand (+13 GMT)

Post by Rotku »

I comletetly agree, BB,. I like the idea behind it, however I feel that it is pushing it a bit too far. Having an HDM review pannal, with questions been asked such as "What does this character bring to the server?", is a bit over the top. To suggest a couple of alternatives:

(1) Currently there is (or use to be) a forum to post in for level 10+ PCs and PrCs. A similar format could be used, in order to make note. That way any trends could be picked up.

(2) Permission needs to be granted by the HDM, as opposed to any DM. Hopefully the HDM should disucss it with the DMs on his/her server, hence getting the opinion of more than one DM.
< Signature Free Zone >
Thangorn
Haste Bear
Posts: 2081
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:00 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Thangorn »

Paazin wrote:I understand a good many people would want this, but aren't there better things for scripters to be working on? We've still a good amount of work to do until ALFA2's scripts are in fine working order... IMO, serious discussion on this is premature.
Thank you for your response Paazin, to clarify for you..
I have volunteered to do all the leg-work, all 3 months worth as part of my server build to Beta 2.
The KOS variant scripts I want are really "Question -> Submit -> Detain" scripts as stated in my proposal above. I want to test my concept on my module anyway and I hate running around playing guards and law-enforcement all the time as a DM.
I know the proposal takes a while to read and I am getting lots of questions for clarification. I have to keep clarifying things that are in already dealt with in the proposal its going to get, well frustrating.

Please note: this is a proposal for a test.. there are quite a few things that affect plane-touched implementation I wanted to test anyway. If things dont work in a test, we fix them before live. If things are completely borked out and unsupportive to people's immersion in the test, we drop them before live..

As to your point about discussion being premature, I will need to start building these things into my module right now if a beta-test on plane-touched focused specifically on tieflings are to go ahead.

Lets have a look at the history of this issue as I see it-:
1. Plane-touched were brought up.
2. Some people wanted them, some people didnt, some wanted to defer worrying about them until later (myself included).
3. A poll is run. Planetouched are kicked out of early live implementation by a poll run for the DM corps.
4. Lots of people got pissed off because their democratic "right" to play plane-touched was being infriged.
5. Flaming and drama ensue.. woohoo exciting stuff and apparently people leave alfa over the issue (amongst others).
6. I, a NWN2 builder and DM, offer to run a test on my module in beta to see if the community concerns are valid because I really am not a fan of drama and want people to have fun.
7. A plane-touched team is formed, I put my offer on hold and offer to work with them.
8. The admin of the time state a number of criteria to be addressed by a plane-touched proposal which as I understood it were based on the community at large's concerns about plane-touched PCs.
9. The plane-touched team go silent.
10. I offer to work with the PT team again.. no response.
11. I go ahead and submit my proposal for a test, highlighting the concerns that admin stated about plane-touched several months ago. The reason I am submitting it now is because I am going to need a bit of admin and tech support for the test, and because I know its going to be alot of work which I will have to start ASAP to get things rolling.

This is all in the interest of offering players and DMs a good time for me.

So now my question would be: If now, less than 1 month before ALFA goes live is not time to discuss this issue. When do people think would be a good time?
On indefinite real life hiatus

[22:52] <Veilan> obviously something sinister must be afoot if a DM does not have his social security number in his avatar name!
Post Reply