Use Your Illusion

[Zelknolf]

*skips reading blather*

You get saves vs an illusion spell if it says you do in the spell boxtext, the only NPCs that get to do so are the ones the DM thinks are relivant. Every mook sitting drinking their brains to mush in your local dive dont count a relivant people, hell you dont even get XP for killing them; eg: they are furniture. Furniture doesnt give a damn about you or your spells unless you start throwing fireballs around and screaming bloody murder.

There are games for that mentality:
http://www.blackdagger.org/

The rest of us are here for immersive role playing, something that demands the maintenance of verisimilitude, which is destroyed by the attitude that all NPCs that the DM isn't controlling are furniture.

However in situations where only 4-5 people are present, close observation of the other parties is commonplace, which increases the chance those observers have at making their saves due to modifiers.

I said that disguise self has a good chance at standing up to the scrutiny of one person, and might even be worthwhile against two. Against a group of four to five, a caster would, in all likelihood, be discovered, and aught to cast the spell intending to just buy some time. A greater spell focus in illusion would make a spell like Seeming (by then DC 23-25; I'd strongly reccomend slapping on a Fox's Cunning before the seeming. Make them suckers with the will saves roll a natural 20) much more viable against four or five people or even against a crowd, as long as the disguise didn't draw the scrutiny of double-digit numbers of people.
(if they have to roll natural 20s, you've an 81.45% chance of success against four people, but you're down at 59.87% at 10 people)

[JaydeMoon]

*goes to the Avlis Ikea, to furnish house with NPCs*

I personally espouse a middle ground... there should be a chance for non-vital NPCs to pierce your illusion. I just don't think as many of them care enough to look at you long enough to be given the chance.

3-4 seconds is a real long time to look at someone when you're scanning crowds. It really really is. I don't think 3-4 people out of a hundred folks all trying to mind their own business would.

I think out of a hundred you might have a few observant rogues, maybe a city guard, etc... those guys might get saves, but the teeming masses just don't care. Even without distractions like TV and radio. They have other distractions, like not pissing others off by staring them down. Good way to start a brawl. Or staring at comely wenches. Or doing their daily shopping. Or not deigning to look upon the non-entities below their station. Or not daring to look upon those that are better than you. Or any number of things.

Zelk, what do you think makes a better bed? Generic Commoner? Generic Patron? Oh... wait... Generic Prostitute...

*me purchases generic prostitute as well as a fat merchant to put in the living room*

Needed a couch, too.

[Magonushi]

The rest of us are here for immersive role playing, something that demands the maintenance of verisimilitude, which is destroyed by the attitude that all NPCs that the DM isn't controlling are furniture.

This reminds me of the days when ALFA thought we were on a separate level above all other DnD geeks. Oh wait...

[JaydeMoon]

It is apparent to me that, with a lower post count than anyone else in this thread (with the exception of Vaelahr, who doesn't actually refute anything Zelk has said and therefore is not pertinent to my causative statement here... sorry Vaelahr, facts is just facts ) that Zelknolf is wrong.

And until Zelk has a post count that approaches something more reasonable, say... at least 1000... we will disregard all arguments as invalid.

You want to be heard, you gotta make more noise! Noise!!!

*purchases a town crier stereo system*

[psycho_leo]

I said that disguise self has a good chance at standing up to the scrutiny of one person, and might even be worthwhile against two.

It's always been my assumption that this would be in fact harder. Of course if you're giving everyone a save, you have a much better chance the less people are around. But that lonely guy or even the pair, if not entertained by each other, are more likely to take a closer look to someone passing by and would have a better chance of finding an imperfection in your magical disguise.

[FanaticusIncendi]

I personally espouse a middle ground... there should be a chance for non-vital NPCs to pierce your illusion. I just don't think as many of them care enough to look at you long enough to be given the chance.

3-4 seconds is a real long time to look at someone when you're scanning crowds. It really really is. I don't think 3-4 people out of a hundred folks all trying to mind their own business would.

I think out of a hundred you might have a few observant rogues, maybe a city guard, etc... those guys might get saves, but the teeming masses just don't care. Even without distractions like TV and radio. They have other distractions, like not pissing others off by staring them down. Good way to start a brawl. Or staring at comely wenches. Or doing their daily shopping. Or not deigning to look upon the non-entities below their station. Or not daring to look upon those that are better than you. Or any number of things.

+1

[fluffmonster]

well...even a glance is sometimes enough to notice that something isn't right. Unless the illusion/disguise is perfect, something isn't right. Whether the 'not right' is odd enough for a second look...well, I guess that's up to the DM.

(looks at the other post counts)

guess I win.

+1

[JaydeMoon]

Well, there's a hundred and one + possibilities and permutations.

I mean, you start getting into things like what you're disguised as, how appropriate is it for the area you're in, how much of a change it is from what is normally there, the individual setting, etc.

If all I did was create an illusion so my normally brown eyes are blue, far less people are going to have a chance to notice than if I change my entire outfit to blue.

If I'm wearing full plate but am illused to seem like I'm in a silk suit, well everyone in that crowded marketplace that I bump against (which will probably be a LOT) is gonna wonder why my silk suit was so hard, thereby granting a chance to pierce the illusion.

Disguised as a beggar, crawling through rat infested slums probably won't draw notice from anyone inclined to do or say anything about it.

But anyway, according to the actual RULES of DnD, a glance is NOT enough to notice that something isn't right to the point that they get to make a save. Study and interaction. And until you came in to the conversation, throwing around your post count (big jerk), no side of the debate was trying to prove that a simple glance warranted a save.

We all agree that a simple glance is not saving throw inducing (except you). The point of contention is how many people, realistically, would give you more than that passing glance.

So... *looks at Fluff's post count* BAH! however, the actual wordage you used I cannot debate. A glance certainly might be enough to notice something is 'off' and then it IS up to the DM to determine whether that warrants a second look. Which may lead to study. Which may lead to a save.

[fluffmonster]

Well Jaydey baby, if you're DMing me, the rules are whatever you say they are.

[Burt]

Jayde is stupid.

[JaydeMoon]

Burt failz at piercing my illusion and is thus fooled.

Complacency shall set in and then I shall enact my master plan.

[Veilan]

It's a level 1 spell, therefore I see no compelling balance argument why you should fool any number of people above the statistical average of non-detection through game mechanics.

Fluff is rather correct though that the current "policy" on RP spells is DM arbitration.

[yavanion]

Jayde...

Thats a wery old debate you taken up, its been argued back and fourth in DnD since its start...

If i dont remember entirly wrong, interaction isent enough, a person has actually to spend a 1 round action disbeleaving... ie, as a player you as a DM describes a scene, i as a player says hmmm some thing fishy here, i then have to declare that im actively trying to disbelief the illusion, wich is a action...

I remember the old Fireball vs a Illusion of a Fireball... i first cast a real fire ball, then i cast a Illusion of a fire ball, now the illusion might lack some sensory input, but are you going to stand there actively disbeleave the fireball (will save) or try to "dodge" it using a regular "ref" save you wont get both...

Bascially its up to DM to decided what NPC would get a save, and its up to a DM to provide information in such a sneaky way that a PC might suspect a illusion and by such actively disbeleave... no simple way really, but i guess the use of hidden spell craft skill here or lore check ...

[Mord]

How about a persuade check?

[Zelknolf]

If i dont remember entirly wrong, interaction isent enough, a person has actually to spend a 1 round action disbeleaving... ie, as a player you as a DM describes a scene, i as a player says hmmm some thing fishy here, i then have to declare that im actively trying to disbelief the illusion, wich is a action...

2nd edition rule. 3.0 and 3.5 count "interaction" as grounds for a will save.

3-4 seconds is a real long time to look at someone when you're scanning crowds. It really really is. I don't think 3-4 people out of a hundred folks all trying to mind their own business would.

You still speak from the perspective of someone raised in an entirely different environment. You have been, since a very young age, conditioned to ignore things that aren't immediately relevant to you, as most things that aren't immediately relevant are scams or advertisements (and listening to either is distinctly harmful to you). Toril has none of that.

It is apparent to me that, with a lower post count than anyone else in this thread, that Zelknolf is wrong.

It's apperant to me that your extra use of that is funneh!

How do you like them apples? Huh? B'yotch!?

This reminds me of the days when ALFA thought we were on a separate level above all other DnD geeks. Oh wait...

I didn't say we were separate from all other DnD geeks. Last I checked, this was a game and we were here to have fun. I said, accurately, that the purpose of this community was to provide an immersive role playing environment. If someone doesn't like that mode of gaming, they aught not try to play here; it's going to lead to frustration on the part of the player and those around the player (who expect an immersive mode of gaming). You can accuse if elitism if you're so inclined; I reccomended Avlis because it's still a role playing world that expects players to be in character all the time where the policy on all things is "What you see is what you get," making it perfectly appropriate and acceptable to ignore NPCs, aside from what a DM forces them to do or what they're scripted to do. This sounds to me to be more the attitude that TT would enjoy.

It's a level 1 spell

This is what a lot of what this all comes down to. Disguise self is a shitty spell. It's a little visual trick that can make some people giggle or fool a couple dumbasses, because that's how powerful a level 1 spell is. The name of the spell isn't "Bullshit with Impunity," "Deny Everyone A Fighting Chance," "Railroad Your Party," "Coddle Your Favorite Players," or "Create Plots of Cheese." (Though Disguise Self is often used to do all three of those things)

Seeming is listed as creating multiple instances of Disguise Self. It is, basically, a 1st level spell with more targets and a higher save, like a mass cure light wounds (which, coincidentally, is also a level 5 spell). It'll make some people giggle harder or fool a couple more dumbasses, because that's how these "pile o' lower level spells in one casting" spells work. It still isn't "Bullshit with Impunity," "Deny Everyone A Fighting Chance," "Railroad Your Party," "Coddle Your Favorite Players," or "Create Plots of Cheese."