Hello everyone,
The OAS2 is still growing at a reasonable rate, and I'm now at the point of wanting to make a dungeon adventure that's re-usable (by DM invitation to parties of good candidates). Small problem; I've never DMed NWN and have very little experience of doing anything dangerous in-game in ALFA. So please help the n00b out and post your opinions on the following:
Assumptions: 4 players of 1st level. Live DM. Session length 2-3 hours(?).
What do you think about...
Encounters... How many? How difficult? How often?
Skill use... Lock pick/Spot/Disarm trap... What DC? (I'm guessing 14)
Puzzles... Do we like them? Pull the lever? Find the keys? Move things into order?
General... What rocks? What sucks?
This is a bit of an arm-wave, I know, but any tips gratefully received.
Teric
Dungeon Design
Moderator: ALFA Administrators
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Teric neDhalir
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Misty
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Puzzles would encourage more RP between members as they try to figure them out, something we are presumably looking for.
Skill use at 14 is smack average for any level 1 who has max ranks in a particular skill... so yes. Should the DM allow for 'taking 10' they'd manage just fine.
graduated encounters are great: 1, 2, 4, 8... it gives the party the chance to turn around if they get into something they feel they cannot handle.
what rocks? looting previous failed adventurers, perhaps making it so they hold a key element needed later. Definitely increases suspense to find someone who didn't make it.
what sucks? being spoonfed every piece so the adventuars always succeed. A sense of failure coupled with the actual chance at failing makes things fun (for me at least). And failure doesn't always mean death, there is capture, simply failing to grasp a specific key, getting lost....
Skill use at 14 is smack average for any level 1 who has max ranks in a particular skill... so yes. Should the DM allow for 'taking 10' they'd manage just fine.
graduated encounters are great: 1, 2, 4, 8... it gives the party the chance to turn around if they get into something they feel they cannot handle.
what rocks? looting previous failed adventurers, perhaps making it so they hold a key element needed later. Definitely increases suspense to find someone who didn't make it.
what sucks? being spoonfed every piece so the adventuars always succeed. A sense of failure coupled with the actual chance at failing makes things fun (for me at least). And failure doesn't always mean death, there is capture, simply failing to grasp a specific key, getting lost....
Last PC: Laurelin ~ dancer, trickster and professional pain-in-the-backside
Currently living like Rip van Winkle.
Currently living like Rip van Winkle.
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dergon darkhelm
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Pick locks/Disable Rog lvl 1 with 4 ranks and a mod of +2 (dex 14) has a total of around +6 ...so 14 for a DC is right on target.
Taking 20 it's likely that a lock/trap of DC 25ish will be able to be worked around.
What rocks? -- forced team work (even if PCs don't get along)...one PC has to jump a chasm, another then has to tight-rope walk across the plank the jumper laid out and a third needs to reason out the meaning of the rare symbolic puzzle .....all while the tanks have to hold closed the door to keep out hordes of undead
Any rewards that are "different" ------even minor items that can't be bought "off the shelf" are VERY exciting for players (i know that's a ton of work ......but it *does* Rock)
Keeping the heat on ---finding a way to force the party into challenging decisions as to whether to push on or withdraw....... time limited challenges ( the tome said that the river would flood the whole valley if the Orb of Alcaholia was not restored to it's rightful place before this midsummer's eve, etc)
What sucks --
Linear plotlines where each step of the adventure and the end result has be predetermined by the DM either for success or failure.
Immortal/untouchable "pet" NPCs that make the PCs wonder "if this guy is so powerful that he can teleport in and out at will and all our attacks fall off him, why doesn't he just kill us now and be done with it?"
Monsters who, after the party has been mindlessly cutting down dozens of their associates all adventure, suddenly become NPCs to deliver important information .....just let them be KOS and find a different way get out the info.
Taking 20 it's likely that a lock/trap of DC 25ish will be able to be worked around.
What rocks? -- forced team work (even if PCs don't get along)...one PC has to jump a chasm, another then has to tight-rope walk across the plank the jumper laid out and a third needs to reason out the meaning of the rare symbolic puzzle .....all while the tanks have to hold closed the door to keep out hordes of undead
Any rewards that are "different" ------even minor items that can't be bought "off the shelf" are VERY exciting for players (i know that's a ton of work ......but it *does* Rock)
Keeping the heat on ---finding a way to force the party into challenging decisions as to whether to push on or withdraw....... time limited challenges ( the tome said that the river would flood the whole valley if the Orb of Alcaholia was not restored to it's rightful place before this midsummer's eve, etc)
What sucks --
Linear plotlines where each step of the adventure and the end result has be predetermined by the DM either for success or failure.
Immortal/untouchable "pet" NPCs that make the PCs wonder "if this guy is so powerful that he can teleport in and out at will and all our attacks fall off him, why doesn't he just kill us now and be done with it?"
Monsters who, after the party has been mindlessly cutting down dozens of their associates all adventure, suddenly become NPCs to deliver important information .....just let them be KOS and find a different way get out the info.
PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
I agree with dergon and Misty. Good posts by both.
With rewards/loot, have a few items of questionable value that the players may wonder if they should take or not. "a glass eye, dusty old cookbook, spare door hinges, a set of silver eating utensils, a block of wax, an empty wine bottle, etc." Keeps wheels turning with regards to any puzzles. May make players ask themselves, Is this supposed to be for something?
Always a fan of the classic "30 foot tall statue with gemstones for eyes". Gets those treasure-hunters using that rope and making use of Climb.
With rewards/loot, have a few items of questionable value that the players may wonder if they should take or not. "a glass eye, dusty old cookbook, spare door hinges, a set of silver eating utensils, a block of wax, an empty wine bottle, etc." Keeps wheels turning with regards to any puzzles. May make players ask themselves, Is this supposed to be for something?
Always a fan of the classic "30 foot tall statue with gemstones for eyes". Gets those treasure-hunters using that rope and making use of Climb.
"The God of the Qurʾan is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -- Vaelahr
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Brokenbone
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Highly endorsed link, to the series of "adventure builder" articles for PnP D&D: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ab
I'd start with the first link there, literally, "writing your first adventure", at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a
It's not terribly hard to try to think of all the stuff in those links in NWN terms. You may find significant toning down required though if the adventure is for four level 1 PCs.
Anyhow as to your four points:
ENCOUNTERS: This isn't Diablo, you don't need to have combat after combat. However, in case your party turns out to be ultraviolent, be prepared to alter the style of your carefully planned adventure such that the "evil tribe" has an extra bruiser, or the wolves have a packleader who might appear, whatever. Still, with four level 1 PCs, any encounter of more than EL1 will end up pretty hurty.
SKILL USE: 15 is where I'd start on pretty much anything. Example, in DnD, even the worst lock should be DC 20. Anything less than that and you may actually be encountering a "door barred from the other side", i.e., super low-tech lock.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goo ... s.htm#lock
PUZZLES: Awesome, any you can think of will often end up really memorable, the most memorable part of an adventure in cases. Sometimes this is where scripting can really add some wow to the game. Stuff like "if someone sticks the 20lb idol on the red square in a mosaic, you teleport" or even corny checkerboard stuff, like walking a path of letters to avoid traps. I think that's an Indiana Jones thing, come to think. If stuck for inspiration, plenty of online resources, try this one as a starter (note at least 90% of the traps are completely lame, but the riddles are often classics, take for what it's worth):
http://www.thievesguild.cc/riddles/
http://www.thievesguild.cc/traps/
GENERAL: Good includes paying attention to music, paying attention to lighting & vfx, but using them more as seasoning as opposed to main ingredients of the recipe. You don't need to walk into the foyer of a dungeon and blow all your best tricks there. Work up to it.
Having a labyrinth type dungeon is good too, where not every room has to be visited. Especially if you plan to recycle this dungeon, don't worry, someone will see all the eye candy eventually. I.e., crossroads, choices, all good, and all create tension. Having a very linear type exploration where room A leads to B, B to C, C to D, and D is the grand finale, can be kind of boring.
Good also includes thinking of at least one thing suited to a character class (or race), and putting that goodie in your adventure. Maybe there's an element only a persuasive bard can coax out of an NPC hint-giver. Maybe there's a trap that is on a "shortcut" in an adventure that only a rogue could bypass. A religious element, or egghead mage element that requires reading some runes, holy texts, dead languages, whatever. A boulder that could be moved away from a door if you've got a couple of bruisers who manage to push it aside with a combined strength score of "something or other." It is very nice when everyone gets a chance to be a star. If you happen to have a party of four rogues though *shrugs* hey at least you tried. None of these elements are necessarily mandatory, but they might make the overall adventure easier (like revealing shortcuts, clues, a hidden treasure, whatever).
Probably a long enough post at this point, good luck building!
I'd start with the first link there, literally, "writing your first adventure", at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a
It's not terribly hard to try to think of all the stuff in those links in NWN terms. You may find significant toning down required though if the adventure is for four level 1 PCs.
Anyhow as to your four points:
ENCOUNTERS: This isn't Diablo, you don't need to have combat after combat. However, in case your party turns out to be ultraviolent, be prepared to alter the style of your carefully planned adventure such that the "evil tribe" has an extra bruiser, or the wolves have a packleader who might appear, whatever. Still, with four level 1 PCs, any encounter of more than EL1 will end up pretty hurty.
SKILL USE: 15 is where I'd start on pretty much anything. Example, in DnD, even the worst lock should be DC 20. Anything less than that and you may actually be encountering a "door barred from the other side", i.e., super low-tech lock.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goo ... s.htm#lock
PUZZLES: Awesome, any you can think of will often end up really memorable, the most memorable part of an adventure in cases. Sometimes this is where scripting can really add some wow to the game. Stuff like "if someone sticks the 20lb idol on the red square in a mosaic, you teleport" or even corny checkerboard stuff, like walking a path of letters to avoid traps. I think that's an Indiana Jones thing, come to think. If stuck for inspiration, plenty of online resources, try this one as a starter (note at least 90% of the traps are completely lame, but the riddles are often classics, take for what it's worth):
http://www.thievesguild.cc/riddles/
http://www.thievesguild.cc/traps/
GENERAL: Good includes paying attention to music, paying attention to lighting & vfx, but using them more as seasoning as opposed to main ingredients of the recipe. You don't need to walk into the foyer of a dungeon and blow all your best tricks there. Work up to it.
Having a labyrinth type dungeon is good too, where not every room has to be visited. Especially if you plan to recycle this dungeon, don't worry, someone will see all the eye candy eventually. I.e., crossroads, choices, all good, and all create tension. Having a very linear type exploration where room A leads to B, B to C, C to D, and D is the grand finale, can be kind of boring.
Good also includes thinking of at least one thing suited to a character class (or race), and putting that goodie in your adventure. Maybe there's an element only a persuasive bard can coax out of an NPC hint-giver. Maybe there's a trap that is on a "shortcut" in an adventure that only a rogue could bypass. A religious element, or egghead mage element that requires reading some runes, holy texts, dead languages, whatever. A boulder that could be moved away from a door if you've got a couple of bruisers who manage to push it aside with a combined strength score of "something or other." It is very nice when everyone gets a chance to be a star. If you happen to have a party of four rogues though *shrugs* hey at least you tried. None of these elements are necessarily mandatory, but they might make the overall adventure easier (like revealing shortcuts, clues, a hidden treasure, whatever).
Probably a long enough post at this point, good luck building!
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack
DMA Staff
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Teric neDhalir
- Githyanki
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To clarify; This is meant as a "graduation" exercise for the OAS - promising players would be invited to take part, and if they play to ALFA standard would be accepted as members at the end. So it's only playable by any one player once, and can be hard-coded.Chamu wrote:If you truly want this to want this to be a reusable dungeon that will serve many a dungeon crawl, I would recommend not putting in spawns and let the DM spawn what he feels is right for the plot and the party at hand.
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JaydeMoon
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To extrapolate on a point above:
Making it not linear and then putting different sorts of challenges along different routes.
Perhaps the group doesn't have tanks. One area has enough monsters to be worrisome without two or three fighters so they go another route. That route has traps and locked doors and small, but dangerous monsters that can be taken out by traps.
Another route has puzzles that require ingenuity to get through.
Yet another has obstacles with spell trigger solutions.
All paths eventually lead to the MacGuffin, which in turn leads directly out (so there isn't any 'winning' but then going back to 'clear' the dungeon).
Then PCs can navigate the place based on their strengths and weaknesses and you don't have a dungeon that ~requires~ certain classes or balanced parties, etc. Because you won't always have that luxury with a 'graduating' OAS class.
Making it not linear and then putting different sorts of challenges along different routes.
Perhaps the group doesn't have tanks. One area has enough monsters to be worrisome without two or three fighters so they go another route. That route has traps and locked doors and small, but dangerous monsters that can be taken out by traps.
Another route has puzzles that require ingenuity to get through.
Yet another has obstacles with spell trigger solutions.
All paths eventually lead to the MacGuffin, which in turn leads directly out (so there isn't any 'winning' but then going back to 'clear' the dungeon).
Then PCs can navigate the place based on their strengths and weaknesses and you don't have a dungeon that ~requires~ certain classes or balanced parties, etc. Because you won't always have that luxury with a 'graduating' OAS class.
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Teric neDhalir
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darrenhfx
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Maybe you could make the dungeon exert a suggestive power over the players, part of its curse. Planting subtle doubts in the minds about the intents of the others and having them rp the results woudl be a cool. I guess that's not something that could be hard-coded though.. more a theme. The hard-coded aspect could a scripted message that fired when they enter mentioning some new force or pressure that they can feel in their mind.
How about then, a portal that sends the 4 players to 2 different areas of the dungeon... although logistically that could be a PITA without having 2 DM's involved. The idea would be to see how they cope with an unexpected twist and make one of the challenges to find each other as they need all 3 gemstones to reach the final area. They'd have to break from party chat and could be warned that tells are a no-no.
Lots of great ideas above from the other posters as well.
How about then, a portal that sends the 4 players to 2 different areas of the dungeon... although logistically that could be a PITA without having 2 DM's involved. The idea would be to see how they cope with an unexpected twist and make one of the challenges to find each other as they need all 3 gemstones to reach the final area. They'd have to break from party chat and could be warned that tells are a no-no.
Lots of great ideas above from the other posters as well.
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dergon darkhelm
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One of the most fun encounters I have had in my PnP group was in Lord of the Iron Fortress where, upon entering a room full of big bad hostiles the 12th level PCs walked across a trap the discharged "Power Word: Discord"darrenhfx wrote:Maybe you could make the dungeon exert a suggestive power over the players, part of its curse. Planting subtle doubts in the minds about the intents of the others and having them rp the results woudl be a cool.
3 of 7 PCs failed saves and they all were *awesome* at RPing (as well as the needed meta needed to sell the others at the table top) the whole situation. One just started yelling at the cleric "God damn it ! I need more Spells cast upon me first!" While another " We should flee! We Should flee!"
It was awesome ..............but 2 PCs died
..........but it was still awesome! PCs: NWN1: Trailyn "Wayfarer" Krast, Nashkel hayseed
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
NWN2: ??
gsid: merado_1
Here is what I did. I made a low level dungeon on Luskan. The first part of the dungeon required players to pick a lock, find a secret door behind a bookcase, which fired on a click and successful search check(made it obvious by being usable to players, unfortunately).
The second part was complete with undead that, when killed, two minutes later would "mend" themselves. I wrote a script that did a check for the big boss NPC, as long as he was alive (not OBJECT_INVALID), it would fire the timer for mending and get back up to harrass the players, otherwise, they would stay dead. They were really low CR, but would be effective later for any dungeon.
The third part of the dungeon was a puzzle to open a secret door. PCs walked into a room with 8 individual cold fires (blue fire effect), upon clicking on them, had inventory. Each had a gem.
All around the room, I placed invisible objects in the "braziers" in the tileset (not usable). I wrote an onclose script that checked what gem from which fire had been placed in the inventory of the "brazier". If that gem went with that brazier, onclose, a small blue cold fire lit in the "brazier".
They had to do that to all 8 "braziers" around the room. I wrote the script to keep track of the total amount of braziers that were lit. Remove a gem from any one them and the light would go out on that "brazier".
A total of 8 "braziers" lit would open a secret door. Removing even one would close the secret door.
It took the players a good 20 minutes to finally work together, since everyone had run up to a fires and grabbed a gem, and figure out the puzzle.
Anyway, my point is, a good mixture, regardless of what your end goal is, will be rewarding for any and all players.
The second part was complete with undead that, when killed, two minutes later would "mend" themselves. I wrote a script that did a check for the big boss NPC, as long as he was alive (not OBJECT_INVALID), it would fire the timer for mending and get back up to harrass the players, otherwise, they would stay dead. They were really low CR, but would be effective later for any dungeon.
The third part of the dungeon was a puzzle to open a secret door. PCs walked into a room with 8 individual cold fires (blue fire effect), upon clicking on them, had inventory. Each had a gem.
All around the room, I placed invisible objects in the "braziers" in the tileset (not usable). I wrote an onclose script that checked what gem from which fire had been placed in the inventory of the "brazier". If that gem went with that brazier, onclose, a small blue cold fire lit in the "brazier".
They had to do that to all 8 "braziers" around the room. I wrote the script to keep track of the total amount of braziers that were lit. Remove a gem from any one them and the light would go out on that "brazier".
A total of 8 "braziers" lit would open a secret door. Removing even one would close the secret door.
It took the players a good 20 minutes to finally work together, since everyone had run up to a fires and grabbed a gem, and figure out the puzzle.
Anyway, my point is, a good mixture, regardless of what your end goal is, will be rewarding for any and all players.
Builder/DM
NWN2 ALFA 02- The Frozen North
PC: Gegnar Stonechipper- A Smith of Mirabar
Luskan- Server Retired
NWN2 ALFA 02- The Frozen North
PC: Gegnar Stonechipper- A Smith of Mirabar
Luskan- Server Retired
Not to clip your idea or your work, cause you've worked ceaselessly at bringing the oas2 together, but here goes my own opinion, being a former dm of oas1 as well as instructor for rp 101....
Having a pass fail dungeon to determine membership seems a bit iffy to me.
In the past we have confirmed membership with the approval of more than one dm...ie, you had to have two dms of the oas to give you a thumbs up in order to be considered for membership. I thought this a good way of doing the app. process, as one dm might miss something or have a bias, whereas two balances the inspection of the player out. So... a pass/fail really is eliminating the two dms to just one dm's judgement.
If you intend to keep this model of membership... I'd suggest personally to get the two thumbs up before the dungeon is even run. Even so...I just don't like the idea of a dungeon crawl determining membership. The community has always prided itself in high RP.. granted I am sure many have experienced this rp during a crawl, and I am sure many members might think of many situations they have been in that disagrees with my veiw...
But I don't think a dungeon is the most suitable of places to demonstrate rp skills. Of coarse, I have seen awesome rp during the crawls I have been on, but for a player just coming into the folds of Alfa, I also remember being so racked as an applicant myself that my rp skills were not accurately reflected through the crawls I made during my own time on the OAS. I firmly beleive it was my rp outside of the dungeon atmosphere that lent to my credibility. Again, I am sure many would disagree with my own veiw, but then most that would are not dming the oas either.
What we have used dungeons for in the past, is a PART of the judgement process, not the final proceeding of pass/fail your in and your not. We have also used such a dungeon experinence after our rp 101 sessions, to intill the feeling of high RP WITHIN a crawl atmosphere...
Not really sure how the new OAS will differ from the old, if at all...but all the same, build the dungeon! No matter if it is for the end all/be all, an aftermath of rp 101, or merely a random dungeon, I am sure it will see plenty of use in what ever capacity it serves.
Daniel
Having a pass fail dungeon to determine membership seems a bit iffy to me.
In the past we have confirmed membership with the approval of more than one dm...ie, you had to have two dms of the oas to give you a thumbs up in order to be considered for membership. I thought this a good way of doing the app. process, as one dm might miss something or have a bias, whereas two balances the inspection of the player out. So... a pass/fail really is eliminating the two dms to just one dm's judgement.
If you intend to keep this model of membership... I'd suggest personally to get the two thumbs up before the dungeon is even run. Even so...I just don't like the idea of a dungeon crawl determining membership. The community has always prided itself in high RP.. granted I am sure many have experienced this rp during a crawl, and I am sure many members might think of many situations they have been in that disagrees with my veiw...
But I don't think a dungeon is the most suitable of places to demonstrate rp skills. Of coarse, I have seen awesome rp during the crawls I have been on, but for a player just coming into the folds of Alfa, I also remember being so racked as an applicant myself that my rp skills were not accurately reflected through the crawls I made during my own time on the OAS. I firmly beleive it was my rp outside of the dungeon atmosphere that lent to my credibility. Again, I am sure many would disagree with my own veiw, but then most that would are not dming the oas either.
What we have used dungeons for in the past, is a PART of the judgement process, not the final proceeding of pass/fail your in and your not. We have also used such a dungeon experinence after our rp 101 sessions, to intill the feeling of high RP WITHIN a crawl atmosphere...
Not really sure how the new OAS will differ from the old, if at all...but all the same, build the dungeon! No matter if it is for the end all/be all, an aftermath of rp 101, or merely a random dungeon, I am sure it will see plenty of use in what ever capacity it serves.
Daniel
Zyrus Meynolt: [Party] For the record, if this somehow blows up in our faces and I die, I want a raiseSwift wrote: Permadeath is only permadeath when the PCs wallet is empty.
<Castano>: danielnm - can you blame them?
<danielmn>: Yes,
<danielmn>: Easily.
"And in this twilight....our choices seal our fate"
Quick response to this before I get to the point!Brokenbone wrote:SKILL USE: 15 is where I'd start on pretty much anything. Example, in DnD, even the worst lock should be DC 20. Anything less than that and you may actually be encountering a "door barred from the other side", i.e., super low-tech lock.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goo ... s.htm#lock
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneLock.htm
There are canonical ways to make locks permanently unpickable, and that's only a level 2 spell with a 25 gold material component. (might even force the wee buggers to look for a scroll of knock like that! Buaha!)
Now... to the dungeon thingy...
What Rocks -- Plots that require thought. Anyone can make a meat grinder, but if every fight is won by sticking the tanks up front and getting the rogues /just/ close enough to slap the sneak attack on while the mages decide whether to use magic missile or a crossbow, it'll get old fast. Even the most violent players like to work the grey matter a little bit.
-- flavorful scenery. I might not be in the majority for this one, but I've always liked quality areas, rather than quantity, and "template" areas have always frustrated me to no end.
-- triggers that highlight characters' unique stuffs. (really, anything that highlights characters' unique stuffs... it's just that it's more manageable while you're DMing if it's a trigger. Maybe you're in a tunnel and something checks if a dwarf walked through to say "Hey, this tunnel is unstable" or "A different craftsman obviously did the stonework here.")
What Sucks -- dungeon crawls!
... okay, srsly, I say that I don't like dungeon crawls because, in most dungeon crawls, someone is standing in the back of the group with nothing to do. Either it's me, or the person back there is bitching about being back there to me. Ruins the gaming session. Prolly not a big chance of it happening in the numbers you're talking about, but there tends to be a miserable player behind that character who's trying to fade into the background.-- Big groups. I know ya said you'd only take 4 PCs; I'd reccomend being strict with yourself on those invites. It's very easy to get the double digit numbers of PCs in a group, and I can say that I've been in gaming sessions with double-digit numbers of PCs twice since I've joined ALFA, and I've contemplated leaving the server I was on right after both times. Even with great planning and coordination with other DMs, the best I've heard of happening with more than about 6 PCs is just railroading and cheese.