PrCs: How Was It For You?

JaydeMoon · Post by **JaydeMoon** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:58 pm

The mechanics are just the skills that back up the RP.

You can RP your mad stealth and hide in the shadows skills all you want... but if you don't have Hide and Move Silent ranks... it just don't work. Weapons Master need to have the feats and AB that are the mechanical proof that they are damn good with that weapon.

Etc.

You gotta draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you'll have level 2 Weapons master. "But he RPs training everyday and in his bio is said he studied under five masters, and he doesn't use other weapons!"

RP and game mechanics go hand in hand. ALFA, PnP, LARPs, etc. You have mechanics that exist and affect how you RP.

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:19 am

Misty Eyes wrote:Personally, I'd like to see more of the Shadowdancers actually dance

Nothing wrong with dancing, or SDs dancing of course, but shadowdance is Thieve's Cant for "hide", so it's cool if SDs don't or can't literally dance.

Rotku · Post by **Rotku** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:13 am

Well, given that Shadowdancers have to have ranks in Preform (dance)...

Misty · Post by **Misty** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:26 am

oh come on! It is a personal opinion, and it ain't changing. Nor am I gonna expect the others to do so just because I wish it.

Vaelahr · Post by **Vaelahr** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:06 am

I understand that Misty, and I gave mine as a counterpart to yours.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:09 am

While i have not been privvy for some time in how PrCs were getting awarded (and being a recipient of one myself), i do not feel they ended up being exactly what we wanted them to be. The time investment was never consistent from one to another, there was a bias towards some over others (which is disappointing, but not really unexpected) and there did not seem to be many safeguards in place to prevent DM shopping for a PrC (Not saying that has happened, i would not know, but communication is far from ALFAs strong point, and it worried me quite a bit).

That said, we were also cornered a little in that they were being introduced into an already established world, with many established PCs. I know before PrCs were officially in, a number of players had worked towards various ones with their DMs, and then got a bit screwed when the official PrC requirements didn't match up with what their DMs ran. I think ALFA will be alot better equipped for PrCs with NWN2 since they will be there from the outset.

I do not think PrCs were a failure, but i certainly think they ended up being a little lacking and less prestigious than we wanted them to be.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:58 am

Question:

Are PRCs considered to be "better" or more powerful than non-PRC characters, or just different? If better, why should they be?

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:59 am

I have only my own PrC experience (SD) as a point of reference.

I had probably 6 different DMs involved in attempting my PrC which I had planned as a goal for the PC from day 1. A lot of this was probably related to the death of TLR just as I was begging the attempt. I spent probably 8 months, having 2 or 3 introductory sessions with one DM, then having those DMs fade off of the server/ALFA and repeating with another. I ended up being a "squeaky wheel" (read -- "bitchy pain in the ass"

) toward the end and feel like the actual granting was more based on a "long term assessment of my RP with the character" than with the specific PrC questing...... which is OK .....just posting my thoughts

.

_______
As to the particular "dance" portion of the shadowdance:

Obviously my PC has the mandated ranks of perform (dance), but I personally have de-emphasized the dancing. MY HIPS is really more of "shadow commune" which I feel is much more applicable to my character than dancing.

I have tried very hard to RP the effect to the few other PCs who have seen the ability in use close up.

The difference between Laurelin's "dancing" and Malcer's "sickening lurch into the shadows that swirl about his ankles" highlights nicely the differences in the two PCs

Keith Mac · Post by **Keith Mac** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:50 pm

We're not going to require pre-approval for ECL races. I see no reason to require pre-approval for PRC's. If a PrC is seen as unbalancing, like SD or WM, then simply ban (or edit) those PrC's that are unbalancing. One thing I do with WM's in my own games is to limit them to finesse weapons, thus eliminating the scythe/dwarven waraxe issue.

I strongly suspect that it is not the best rpers who get PrC's, but rather those who play often and form a good relationship with a DM, thus it becomes an issue of favoritism. Opening them up eliminates the favoritism issue, whether real or imagined

agreed for the most part, anything that puts such a high level of dm attention will become a sore issue or simply unfair. reduce the RP/dm portion of PrC to a minimum like maybe just one quest. Let the rest be dictated by game mechanics. Certainly a dm or dms who feel a player is not rping properly could make a case to have the PrC removed as in lost the abilities and rebuilt losing their levels in the PrC. This would be such a limited occurance that it seams fair to me.

witch · Post by **witch** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:33 pm

I have seen some valid points being posted. i tend to agree with Mulu that its not necessarily the good rp-ers getting the Prc's. and more the case of playing a lot.

Also we place no preapproval on ecl races indeed so i dont see the point for that with prcs.

I have had one pc with a prc. who basically started his prc quest at level one.
And finally attained it at level 9.
Now why am i saying level 1, because i believe getting a prc is 99% an rp related move. You rp it all the time its how your character is or becomes so to say and not suddenly at level 5 or whatever.. I got the feats now so now im going to rp being a weaponmaster (yes it happens)

the whole 25 parts of completing a prc so to say is something i do not really like. i understand trying to come up with a standard for dm's but imho it has a few flaws.

main one being it takes up a lot of dm time to do it cool and proper. Which means a dm has too focus a lot on one player in a lot of cases. since assassin and sd's tend to not go on "tests" with their buddies.

personally with the always lack of enough dm's i tend to see that as a big minus in how things are handled currently with prc's

i dont think most prcs are better then the standard classes, unless you make PG combinations but, most of them are more flavor then powerful. with perhaps one or two exceptions.

Id wish we find a balance between making sure people RP the character the play and a personalised quest/event etc. But not a list of 5 or 6 events that need to been done, because i really think its a too heavy timesink for a dm.

Perhaps we should not be so anal about prc's. im postitive that if we let the rigidness slide abit we wont see 100's of sd's etc.
Prc's also add flavor to the game and fun, it creates more diversity in toons and i personally dont see that as a negative nor do i see the prc's as a huge inbalace for the game.

my 2 cents

fluffmonster · Post by **fluffmonster** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm

I suspect we've placed PrCs in general on too high a pedestal. Our current approach only makes sense if we believe that PrCs should be quite rare in our world. The time investment for the DM in particular is quite high, because in practice the RP requirement is interpreted as a rather long plot arc.

Personally, I believe that our current approach is too demanding in general. I can understand the desire to keep them hard to get as an incentive for players to RP their best, but it is a rather murky incentive. It only applies to people that actually want one for one thing, AL illustrates other unintended consequences as well. This is entirely aside from the fact that supposedly our members show their RP stripes at the door, and its curious to essentially test them again for what, RP 'grad school'? However, its not clear this approach is justified from a balance perspective. Does a PrC really offer that much more compared to a base class to justify the miserly way in which they are awarded?

I would argue that it depends on the PrC. I think we can find a better balance by treating each PrC differently taking more account of how it balances. By way of brainstorming, suppose we have 3 tiers. Tier 1 PrCs are the most powerful or have the most intensive RP requirements, and can rely on current requirements. SD might be an example, Harper Scout certainly would. Tier 2 PrCs are a step down, and might require DM intervention through contact with a trainer and a quest, but not the huge long story arc or multiple DMs. Weaponmaster might be an example of a tier 2 PrC. Tier 3 PrCs could be unrestricted. An example of this does not immediately come to mind, but something no more powerful than a base class level and with no heavy RP connotation would be appropriate here.

dergon darkhelm · Post by **dergon darkhelm** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:35 pm

oh---forgot to make my point

I don't think that any individual PrC is particularly unbalancing. If you give them the litmus test of comparison to a high level cleric, i doubt you'll find any concerns.

Nor do I think that the RP of a PrC is intrinsically more challenging than the RP of any player. Good rp is good RP regardless of class, prestige or no.

self edit: off topic.

PrCs fall way down the list of imbalncing issues in ALFA.

Rotku · Post by **Rotku** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:10 pm

Swift wrote:I do not think PrCs were a failure, but i certainly think they ended up being a little lacking and less prestigious than we wanted them to be.

Sums up my thoughts nicely.

PensivesWetness · Post by **PensivesWetness** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:10 pm

i've played two charas at length. One of course probably is a PrC just alone be her existance. The other i play with the intent of a PrC, maybe.

I myself have met only a few players of PrC's. usuallly i never knew they were even anything other than iconic classes IC. Only Akemi's Muggles did i even learn about SD's, just by his famous backflips into the ether.

A PrC is planned, mostly. It simply is too hard to figure out later on, unless you really RP the crap out of it. I mean, when i started playing Millia, i was thinking Rogue/Wizard, since that's what i played on the Vast with (and the Wizard part there, also was a divert, that occured via RP)...

those 4 levels of Bard i earned for Millia was totally RP (Thanks to a certain famous Orc-kin playwrite) that just occured. and i never regretted that class combo. It wasn't powerful but it was FUN.

i guess i'm off track but go figure....

idoru · Post by **idoru** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:26 am

If we want the awarding of PrCs to be fair, then making them freely available to anyone who meets the requirements is the obvious way to go.

However, the consequence of that fairness is that we'll likely see a situation where nearly every player above a certain level has PrC levels. There is no problem with this if you accept that the players are heroes, and so the rareness of these classes is guaranteed by the fact that few NPCs have them, not that they're necessarily rare among players.

I disagree with this position. It would be borderline cheesy if nearly every high-level rogue is a shadowdancer or assassin. In the interest of creating a game-world where these classes and their abilities really do stand out as something special, some kind of restrictions are necessary.

If we can't restrict access fairly through the DM quest route, perhaps another alternative would be to up the requirements for the PrCs. Add *1.5 to the currently required skill points, throw on a few extra required feats (that make sense for the class, of course).

That solution would steer us away from canon, but I think this might be one of those cases where we have to accept that PnP rules aren't going to work perfectly for a persistent online game-world.