Having 2 channels, the vote

[White Warlock]

Aye, i am actually surprised by all the doomsaying, and even more surprised by the falsivity of claims made. Moderating of chat has been done in the past, and it was not only effective, but warranted. To see these posts claiming it will be the end of ALFA is outrageous. The chatroom isn't even a productive utility here, it's a plug-in entertainment piece.

And now i'm hearing screams claiming blasphemy because there's a movement to turn the chat room into a productive utility. *throws hands up*

I enjoy the chat room as much as the rest of you, but if it serves no other purpose than to detract from the online game (ALFA NWN1/NWN2), or undermine the project, what's the point?

[Rotku]

Votes equal again! Yay! 27 all.

[mxlm]

So, after moderation goes into effect, will we no longer be permitted to cyber in the main chat room?

[Swift]

Moderating of chat has been done in the past, and it was not only effective, but warranted.

Perhaps in the dark ages. Since i have been in ALFA (Jan 04) i have been in #alfa, and every time serious moderation has been attempted, it has failed.

To see these posts claiming it will be the end of ALFA is outrageous. The chatroom isn't even a productive utility here, it's a plug-in entertainment piece.

And thats all it is treated as by most in chat, and has been for a very long time. A place to chill out and just chat about whatever with other members in the community. Why change that? If you want to productivly6 get shit done, you really are an idiot if you think chat is the right place for it. That is what the hundred different forums here are for. Also the doom and gloom has been about the end of #alfa, a little different than how you have shaped it.

[White Warlock]

Moderating of chat has been done in the past, and it was not only effective, but warranted.

Perhaps in the dark ages. Since i have been in ALFA (Jan 04) i have been in #alfa, and every time serious moderation has been attempted, it has failed.

Swift, it didn't fail, it just wasn't maintained. Eventually the admins who opted to have it moderated, ended their term and moved onto other things. While it 'was' moderated, it was just fine. Moderated, but fully functional and friendlier.

To see these posts claiming it will be the end of ALFA is outrageous. The chatroom isn't even a productive utility here, it's a plug-in entertainment piece.

And thats all it is treated as by most in chat, and has been for a very long time. A place to chill out and just chat about whatever with other members in the community. Why change that? If you want to productivly6 get sh*t done, you really are an idiot if you think chat is the right place for it. That is what the hundred different forums here are for. Also the doom and gloom has been about the end of #alfa, a little different than how you have shaped it.

And with this, we totally disagree. What states we cannot chill out and chat with other members of the community, without resorting to profanity, pornography, and hostility (real or perceived)?

If you want to productivly6 get sh*t done, you really are an idiot if you think chat is the right place for it.

Insult taken, insult given. You're an idiot for thinking it cannot be used for productive purposes.

[Swift]

Swift, it didn't fail, it just wasn't maintained. Eventually the admins who opted to have it moderated, ended their term and moved onto other things. While it 'was' moderated, it was just fine. Moderated, but fully functional and friendlier.

And what is your grand plan to keep the moderation maintained? If Hialmar goes and the next Infra Admin doesn't like the moderation, how do you plan from preventing the channel turning back into the apparent cesspool some people here believe it to be?

For what it is worth, and i dare say Sandermann can confirm this, even the small amounts of moderation that have been tried have been taken badly due to the extent that it has been taken, and from all i have heard so far, the extent moderation of #alfa might get taken to on this attempt, it will not be received well. You'll clean up the place sure, but there won't be many people left in there.

To see these posts claiming it will be the end of ALFA is outrageous. The chatroom isn't even a productive utility here, it's a plug-in entertainment piece.

And thats all it is treated as by most in chat, and has been for a very long time. A place to chill out and just chat about whatever with other members in the community. Why change that? If you want to productivly6 get sh*t done, you really are an idiot if you think chat is the right place for it. That is what the hundred different forums here are for. Also the doom and gloom has been about the end of #alfa, a little different than how you have shaped it.

And with this, we totally disagree. What states we cannot chill out and chat with other members of the community, without resorting to profanity, pornography, and hostility (real or perceived)?

Nothing, and rarely does the channel descend to the depths of pornography. GF may be a pretty loose mod, but even he makes people knock that shit off quick smart.As for profanity...suck it up and get some thicker skin. It is not often, it is not constant, it is not a threat to anyone. We should not have to keep ourselves to "Jolly fine day old chaps" because oh noes, we wouldn't want anyone to get offended.

If you want to productivly6 get sh*t done, you really are an idiot if you think chat is the right place for it.

Insult taken, insult given. You're an idiot for thinking it cannot be used for productive purposes.

Taken, and once again rejected. The main alfa channel has never been a place to reliably get something down. Even the short lived ALFA town hall meetings were conducted in a separate channel so they could be controlled and conducted in a timely fashion. If people want something done with a minimum of fuss and interruption, it always gets done in a separate channel or on the forums. #alfa is a place for input sure, and often Admins have gone there to get that, but not for actually getting things done.

[danielmn]

Welp, I guess that makes me an idiot then. Been called worse.

[Swift]

In this case, the word idiot and naive can be freely interchanged if you find one or the other less offensive.

[FanaticusIncendi]

I find it noteworthy and slightly ironic that a thread intended to determine whether we split the channel or just properly moderate the one we have (a discussion in itself brought on by the poor behavior in chat) has at only page two degenerated into into insult trading. Good job of proving the point.

Oh and in case any of you don't already know where I stand on this issue, I voted No. Moderate the existing channel.

[Electryc]

Voted a big NO. I agree with Fionn, Kate and FanaticusIncendi views on the subject.

[Adalia13]

I vote no, simply because, who is to say the other channel wont become the same..a community this large always has its ups and downs, but all in all I think we are a pretty nice and helpful group, just sometimes our humor goes a bit beyond

As an AR, I always have such title next to my name with PM so if anyone has a question they can ask me in open or feel free to PM me so that they are in a private setting.

just my 2 cents.

[White Warlock]

And what is your grand plan to keep the moderation maintained?

By the tone, I don't think you really care to know...

You'll clean up the place sure, but there won't be many people left in there.

Oh come off it Swift. It's been moderated in the past and plenty of people were there while it was so. Do you truly believe the majority of people who want to participate in chat are juvenile delinquents that cannot possibly handle a moderated environment?

We should not have to keep ourselves to "Jolly fine day old chaps" because oh noes, we wouldn't want anyone to get offended.

Right, so we should be allowed to do whatever we want, regardless of whether it offends people. So how about if i come into chat and offend you, repeatedly? In fact, how about if i offend you every time you step into the chat room? Is that okay? Or is it that it's okay for you to offend people, but not okay for you to be offended? Because, seriously, that's what this is about. Imposing your perceived rights to offend others, knowing full well nobody is going to be as offensive.

Swift, this discussion isn't an attack on you, but you are definitely going on the defensive, and in the process being offensive. I find this interesting, because you're not even a major contributor to the asshattery in chat.

#alfa is a place for input sure, and often Admins have gone there to get that, but not for actually getting things done.

You really haven't been paying attention to the discussions here. New members, game magazine reporters, and visitors from other communities come to the chat room and see something not representative of this community. People asking for help are chided, insulted, and even told derogatory remarks about the ALFA project. As long as #alfa is representative of this community, it needs to actually be managed that way.

I'm going to give a personal experience. Recently we had a new person come to chat, asking about the game. I answered his questions amid calls of "n00b" and comments about how ALFA is "crap." Eventually the person opted, on his own, to jump into PMs with me, since i was the only one answering his questions and giving assistance.

What's wrong with that picture?

[Grand Fromage]

Right, so we should be allowed to do whatever we want, regardless of whether it offends people.

Precisely correct.

So how about if i come into chat and offend you, repeatedly? In fact, how about if i offend you every time you step into the chat room? Is that okay?

Sure. If you really bug me I'll ask you to knock it off, if you persist I'll use that handy "ignore" button. Not a big deal.

Or is it that it's okay for you to offend people, but not okay for you to be offended?

No one has the right to not be offended, ever. Offensive speech is precisely the speech that should be protected. And yes, this is a private organization and not a government entity so we don't technically have any rights, but common decency should apply. Just because you can strip rights doesn't mean you should.

[White Warlock]

Right, so we should be allowed to do whatever we want, regardless of whether it offends people.

Precisely correct.

Alright, let me post pictures of me having sex with your mom. Not offensive enough? How about your dad? Your poodle?

At what point do we state something is 'too' offensive? Because, the line must be drawn somewhere and there exists, at this time, a line. At present, the line is too lenient. The goal here is to move the line to a point where the chat room is not offensive to newcomers.

So how about if i come into chat and offend you, repeatedly? In fact, how about if i offend you every time you step into the chat room? Is that okay?

Sure. If you really bug me I'll ask you to knock it off,

Well, of course, you're a moderator right now. As a moderator, your request has a degree of authority.

if you persist I'll use that handy "ignore" button.

'Ignore' is dependent upon the IRC software u are using. Trillian, for example, doesn't have an ignore feature, nor do a few others i tried. And, newcomers won't know how to do this. Last, they can change their nick and bypass your ignore, so it's pretty friggin' useless.

Anyway, it doesn't address the issue (which is first impressions), and actually interferes with your ability to understand what's going on in discussions.

Just because you can strip rights doesn't mean you should.

So your empowering argument is that people have the 'right' to be offensive and create a hostile environment?

[Grand Fromage]

Right, so we should be allowed to do whatever we want, regardless of whether it offends people.

Precisely correct.

Alright, let me post pictures of me having sex with your mom. Not offensive enough? How about your dad? Your poodle?

Pictures of you nude would offend any creature with eyes, but any offense I may take does not give me the right to impose myself upon your rights. And what I find more offensive is you couldn't come up with a more reasonable example than that, seriously, what kind of stupid argument is that? You're better than this. :p

So how about if i come into chat and offend you, repeatedly? In fact, how about if i offend you every time you step into the chat room? Is that okay?

Sure. If you really bug me I'll ask you to knock it off,

Well, of course, you're a moderator right now. As a moderator, your request has a degree of authority.

I'm not just talking about this channel, I'm speaking in general. I have never encountered a situation where someone did not knock it off if asked politely to do so. I've only had to ignore people because I generally hated them, not because they persisted in doing whatever.

if you persist I'll use that handy "ignore" button.

'Ignore' is dependent upon the IRC software u are using. Trillian, for example, doesn't have an ignore feature, nor do a few others i tried. And, newcomers won't know how to do this. Last, they can change their nick and bypass your ignore, so it's pretty friggin' useless.

A) Use a decent program. B) We can't build everything around the lowest common denominator. C) Changing nicks does not bypass an ignore unless you're using some hilariously crappy program that ignores based on the nick and not the identifying info you get from a /whois. I am unaware of any such program, but I guess they'd exist.

Just because you can strip rights doesn't mean you should.

So your empowering argument is that people have the 'right' to be offensive and create a hostile environment?

Hostile environment is even more subjective than being offensive. But generally yes, that would be the fundamental principle of free speech. Speech that is totally unoffensive doesn't need to be protected, it won't be attacked.