On "blacked out" maps

[dergon darkhelm]

In the months since I was last here and did any significant gaming on BG there have been a number of changes. Most of these are for the better.... a lot better... (statics, random encounters, loot generation, etc)

One that I decidedly do not like though is the blacked out maps in many of the underground areas.

Unless I'm wrong (and I very well could be), there is no mechanism to allow for the PC gaining IC knowledge to end the black out of the map.

I understand that this is likely a counter-meta effort, meant to make the deep dark place seem disorienting, dangerous and spooky..... and I like the notion.

However, there should be some mechanism to allow PCs to "learn" familiar areas. Otherwise, the system simply rewards players who memorize the minimaps, perhaps in no way based on their *PC's* knowledge of the area, but simple on the player's knowledge.

This system just tips the meta from one direction to another.

I applaud the effort to make the dark places dark. Keep the gamma down and force light sources etc.

But PCs have differing intellect and orientation skills than the players playing them to recollect the places they've been. I'd like to see them be able to learn and have the maps revealed over time. Maybe a survival check each time through, or intel check (? wis) or whatever seems appropriate.

Thanks, dergon

[paazin]

Which map specifically do you mean?

The intent has been to make higher-level challenges of this sort and leave lower-level ones "as-is"

[dergon darkhelm]

I've noticed a few actually. Off the top of my head, BG sewers, top floor of the Undercellar, and (i'm pretty sure but can't recall where) one other dungeon where I was poking my head around.

[CloudDancing]

Lurkwood Caves has it. It's when someone uses a roof placeable over a caves area.

I experimented it in the Torriage and Dernal Wood with jungle facades overhead and I turned out not like it. Its infuriating to dms first off to move around precisely and hard to edit the area second off.

In interiors it requires a PC to play in extreme zoom inward which limits movement entirely in an enviroment where you point and click to move.

[paazin]

Ah, sewers are probably an example of a place that ought to have it wiped, considering it's geared towards lower levels.

The rest are intended to stay as-is, until a workable fog-of-war system can be in place

[t-ice]

The rest are intended to stay as-is, until a workable fog-of-war system can be in place

If this effectively kills the map, I hope people have considered how hard it makes using the DM client. I can see it infuriating the player client as well (I always play the game zoomed out "isometric" view), but removing the map sure can make the place a no-go area for DMs. Which of course isn't a problem if there's other areas to use for DMd game instead, leaving these caves for static content.

[kid]

Well sadly all this is irrelevant.

As the intention to make it more real and difficult for players to find thier way about is canncled once CE is installed.

Which leaves only the difficulty for the DM... :/

which is a bit of a shame cuase I really like the blacked out map.
Gives a cool creepy feeling and makes it easy to get lost in.

[Brokenbone]

On the one hand I do like the blackout maps for the sake of mystery / confusion, but on the other hand, it's OOC confusion. That is, the player gets confused. The PC presumably is smart enough to know "I entered via a western staircase, then went down a hall, took a left, now I'm in the second chamber on the right of that new hall..."

I don't know, if I was on the fence, I'd sort of say fostering player / interface / out of character confusion to add challenge may not be that great an idea. It's too bad that minimap business is kind of all-or-nothing in NWN2. I guess when you add to that, the problems of track/survival radar, you do end up with potentially nasty amounts of meta right up there on screen, to warn folks "don't go in the small room to the left, too many hostiles, try the large one to the right."

I suppose if there's really an effect created by a placeable (if Cloud's explanation of a roof is how this actually works?), perhaps removing the placeable by stepping on like, a knowledge (dungeoneering) trigger with the right roll could be an option? Really don't know...

[t-ice]

On the one hand I do like the blackout maps for the sake of mystery / confusion, but on the other hand, it's OOC confusion. That is, the player gets confused. The PC presumably is smart enough

You can't really do PC confusion without player confusion in static content, now can you. (Well, unless you have a script that teleports a PC to random places if the PC fails whatever orientation rolls are set to apply.)

[Heero]

I would vote 'FOR' to removal of the minimap altogether.

[I-KP]

I would vote 'FOR' to removal of the minimap altogether.

You must be joking - aren't you..? The NWN2 interface and camera controls are poor even on a good day so why the Jebus would you advocate making it into an even less intuitive experience by removing the map.

[Heero]

Im not. Ive played a good bit in BG's blacked-out minimap UD and have had neither difficulty navigating nor remembering the way on subsequent visits. Mayhap my natural sense of direction translate into the game? Perchance, but, regardless, I like it.

[I-KP]

Im not. Ive played a good bit in BG's blacked-out minimap UD and have had neither difficulty navigating nor remembering the way on subsequent visits. Mayhap my natural sense of direction translate into the game? Perchance, but, regardless, I like it.

Now that's interesting. I spent years playing the Descent games and I had excellent 3D spatial awareness in those three-dimensional maps (which is why I won, frequently), and give me any FPS today (Red Orchestra 2 being my current) and I'm map aware in very short order, but NWN2 has me lost in no time without the minimap. I can't put my finger on exactly why but something about the engine fails to click with me.

[dergon darkhelm]

On the one hand I do like the blackout maps for the sake of mystery / confusion, but on the other hand, it's OOC confusion. That is, the player gets confused. The PC presumably is smart enough to know "I entered via a western staircase, then went down a hall, took a left, now I'm in the second chamber on the right of that new hall..."

I don't know, if I was on the fence, I'd sort of say fostering player / interface / out of character confusion to add challenge may not be that great an idea. It's too bad that minimap business is kind of all-or-nothing in NWN2.

Well, Dergon the player has an Int 10, a Wis 8, a spatial relationships disability as well as bad case of "I'm an old man who doesn't play video games and wishes he could go round-by-round play in ALFA like at the tabletop".

Dergon the player gets markedly disoriented with a blacked-out map.

Hully Tosscobble, otoh, has Int 14, Wis 14, plus ranks in survival. This should be enough to figure out which was he came in and out of a corridor.

I favor something that reveals the map as is it exposed to the PC's visual range and leaves the portions seen as unblocked.

Make changes based on D&D rules.

[Zelknolf]

To be fair, knowledge (architecture and engineering) would be the skill to understand how buildings and fortifications are laid out, and knowledge (dungeoneering) would be most underground complexes. Survival only applies when you're in "the wild," with some grey area as to what exactly spelunking in natural caves counts as.


Though, paaz, might prod Foam-- there were murmurs of a teleportation system which was mentioned initially as intending to be robust enough that it would track familiarity with areas. If the project is alive in that shape (hard to say; we did eventually get to talking about how restricted the potential user base would be), you might be able to tap teleport's area familiarity tables to make an easy fog of war thing.