The Bladesinger Class (and possibly others)

[Blindhamsterman]

Hi guys,

some might remember that around a year ago I brought up the topic of the Bladesinger PRC. At the time I had been suggesting it because I knew of two players that wished to play such a character (neither were me at the time). It was decided that no PRCs were going to be put into ALFA at that point but since then one was added to be used by at least one live PC since then. The other reason I bring up the topic of this class again is because I have a PC that has been RPd as aiming for this since his creation, my initial plan to 'wing it' and use a different class to represent it is as it turns out not idea from the DMs perspective, and understandably so, mechanics and concepts should match up where possible.

Because of this I've decided to bring up the subject of the class again. My aim here is to first: Hear the willingness for such a class to be added assuming I do all the work getting the class ready for use. The Second is to see if we can come up with a reasonable representation of the class.

On to my proposal:

We make use of Kaedrins PRC which can be seen here: http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/bladesinger

However we make the following changes to bring the class in line with PNP:

• - Remove the mobility, spring attack and Battle Caster feats. The class never had them and never should by default.
  - I would keep the armoured caster as it is, in pnp the class gains the same ability (different name) at the same level.
  - I would also keep skill focus: concentration as the pnp class can take 10 on concentration checks whenever they wish at the same level.
  - Song of Celerity is a tricky one, the ability should grant a sudden quicken with a set level for the spell 1/day at 4th then 2/day at 8th. However this might be someone too powerful for ALFA, I'd suggest either keeping it as Kaedrin designed it or alternately granting the Quicken spell feat at 4th and a bonus spell slot at 8th (3rd level). Either option is easy enough to do.
  - Song of fury works the same as it does in pnp as does the bladesong style

I've already sorted the 2das for the class.

The changes to requirements are as follows:

2DA V2.0

LABEL ReqType ReqParam1 ReqParam2
0 Arcane ARCSPELL 1 ****
1 CmbtCast FEAT 7 ****
2 CombatExpertise FEAT 389 ****
3 WeapFocRapier FEATOR 104 ****
4 WeapFocLSw FEATOR 106 ****
5 Elf RACE 1 ****
6 Half-Elf RACE 4 ****
7 Base_Attack BAB 5 ****
8 ConcentrationSkill SKILL 1 4
9 TumbleSkill SKILL 21 2
10 Dodge FEAT 10 ****
11 Perform(dance) SKILL 46 2
12 Perform(sing) SKILL 49 2
13 Balance SKILL 30 2

These put the class' requirements in line with pnp.

I also Updated the classes skills to match up to those it should have in pnp (plus parry as it's a combat class it makes sense)

Finally. We have quite a large number of Elven players, I would imagine if such a class was included it would see interest from at least a few others and therefore the class seems quite viable.

Please, thoughts and oppinions?

[Ithildur]

Probably helpful to note which version of Bladesinger are you basing your thoughts on. The three most widely known are 2e/Complete Book of Elves, Races of Faerun, and Complete Watered, er, Warrior.

The 2e version translated over would probably be considered too uber for ALFA (although by definition Bladesingers are supposed to be the elite of the elite). Canonically, I'd consider the RoF as the definitive version for a FR setting, though the separate spellbook may need to go. Mechanics wise, the complete warrior version is probably slightly easier to implement, but one of the weakest gish classes out there, arguably weaker than the base class Duskblade. I've played CW based bladesingers as well as EKs in NWN1/2; the way they translate in NWN they tend to end up being an EK with weapon/armor/RP restrictions, most of their class abilties non functional, and behind the EK by about 7 caster lvls. Oh, and much harder to qualify for... >.>

Good luck with this effort, trying to get a custom PRC in, and on top of it, one that is supposed to be a powerful class. I'll fall over and die if a non castrated version ever gets implemented.

Or you could just do it the ALFA way; RP an EK as a bladesinger with all of the restrictions and none of the benefits of a bladesinger. That's the way we like it isn't it?

[Blindhamsterman]

Or you could just do it the ALFA way; RP an EK as a bladesinger with all of the restrictions and none of the benefits of a bladesinger. That's the way we like it isn't it?

8 months ago that was the agreed method for me to do this, but since then thats changed, it's now gotta be done differently.

I've based this version off the Complete warrior version of the bladesigner, as you say its likely one of the least powerful versions. The only major difference between Complete warrior and RoF are as follows however:

• -Complete warrior doesn't have a seperate spellbook - this makes sense IC and cannonically. Traditionally Bladesingers combine arcane and combat skills they had already been learning, so a seperate spellbook makes no sense.
  -Complete warrior doesn't get bonus feats. RoF gains 3 bonus feats during the levelling process which adds to their power
  -Finally.... RoF Song of Celerity is broken, its overpowered cheese and I will not bring it up here in ALFA

Due to the desire to implement the arguably weakest incarnation of the class I am hoping it will be seen with a little more acceptance from the powers that be. If they believe it should be made more powerful in any way then thats fine, we could always simply re-add the bonus feats. Or Modify its caster progression... Whatever. I'm happy with the class as above, its far from overpowered but gives a few quite nice benefits and would be a lot of fun to play.

Standards guys, whats your thoughts please? (I'm a standards guy but my oppinions are probably Biased, Veilan, Holllyfant...?) HDMs, do you see any major issues with the class if implemented as stated in the initial thread?


<edit>
as already said, it doesn't need to really eat up tech folks time as most of it's already done and I can do the rest anyway. Just needs to be checked over by the powers and standards to say if things need changing

Comments and feedback please guys

[Ithildur]

My biggest issue with the CW bladesinger translated to NWN is that at higher lvls (and really, since these are PRCs that cannot be taken before lvl 7 or so at the earliest due to prereqs, we're talking high lvls), even a plain vanilla EK will in many ways will embarrass the guy who is supposed to be the most elite/iconic ftr/mage class.

SImplifying quite a bit, but it comes down to the fact that a standard CW bladesinger build will get utterly left behind in the dust as far as caster lvls by the EK who also can use a two handed weapon with power attack, or a shield and medium or even full plate armor (with a selection of somatic component-less and stilled spells plus long duration buffs). A bladesinger has far less options, and in 3.5 having options like these can mean huge advantages in terms of raw power.

Bladesingers were meant to represent something special, pinnacle among elven fighter/mages; that's why they are so hard to qualify for in 3e and had heavy RP restrictions in 2e, along with the extremely limited weapon/armor restrictions. In return for all that the FR version got some powerful abilties that enhance blending arcane and melee that few others can duplicate: 3 bonus feats over 10 lvls, bladesong bonus to ac, and at high lvls, song of celerity and song of fury. Lesser and Greater Spellsong are nice, but they're things that a lvl 1 bard can duplicate (Greater Spellsong=light Armored Caster; Lessor spellsong probably isn't scriptable in NWN and will likely default to skillfocus: Concentration or something similar).

Bladesong: doable, I've seen various versions of this implemented in nwn1 and nwn2. If you go with the CW version it's essentially Dualist's Canny Defense. If you go with the FR version it's potentially more powerful, except... how much can you raise your INT realisticly in ALFA while keeping up Dex, Str, and Con? It's powerful on paper, but in a low magic setting, not nearly as impressive.

Song of celerity: quickened spells are a pale shadow of the real thing in NWN; it more or less works for one round, but beyond that you lose out on actions/spells/attacks which makes this far short of what it's supposed to do. Giving bonus spellslots and Quicken feat for free isn't going to cut it anyway; all it'll be good for is quickened cantrips (since quickening a spell raises it by 4 lvls and 3e bladesinger is not casting lvl 5 spells until near epic lvls). I'm going to say granting autoquicken spell 1 and 2, possibly 3 at the highest lvls, is far from overpowered considering how quickened spells actually work in nwn. The key is to perhaps cap the number of times this can be done per day, like the CW version.

Song of Fury: doable, in fact nearly all the versions of nwn1/nwn2 bladesingers people have hacked together have a more or less functional Song of Fury. Hardly a gamebreaking ability, it's basicly Rapid Shot for melee... at character lvl 16+ ...

An EK is casting lv 8 spells at around lvl 16/17, while only slightly behind the Bladesinger in AB and HPs... So at lvl 16 (ftr4/wiz2/bladesinger 10) the CW bladesinger can cast lvl 4 spells and gets Rapid Shot... nice if you can combine with a real song of Celerity, but really, hardly overwhelming.

Game over, EK wins, no contest. If you start comparing to more recent gish PRC's like Abjurant Champion, it's even worse. Or a base class cleric.

There's a reason why both times I played a bladesinger in pnp, the DM bumped caster progression to 7/10 rather than 5/10; even still, he's behind the EK by 5-6 lvls. It really doesn't fit established 2e lore/canon, where bladesingers like Josidiah Starym were high lvl casters.

[Blindhamsterman]

Changing the Bladesong ability to be a flat int bonus to ac instead of capped by level isn't difficult.

giving the autoquicken ability for level 1 spells at 4th and level 2 spells at 8th possibly isn't overpowered considering how few spells a Bladesinger is actually going to have. It makes the ability almost identicle to the Races of Faerun version of the class I guess.

In PnP we've always made the class have 7/10 for caster progression too.

BUT

The idea is to make the class fit into how it is currently written in WotC supplements and also be acceptable to the high ups here in ALFA.

As I'd be one of the people aiming for the class I have to say... I really don't care if it's not as crazy powerful as some possible class options. I'd just like to actually be able to BE a bladesinger

Using Autoquicken might be too much.... or it might not? the lack of spells the class has access to really means it probably doesn't matter.

We know all abilities of the class (except song of celerity) are easily doable, and the only one thats isn't (song of celerity) there are a series of reasonable options that could be taken.

I've already got it in a state that it could be dropped into the ALFA haks and work anyway.

[AcadiusLost]

It was decided that no PRCs were going to be put into ALFA at that point but since then one was added to be used by at least one live PC since then.

In fairness, the one that was added was basically just changing the name of a PrC that shipped with the game; no special scripting or difficult custom abilities/powers required. I would still maintain that addition of more custom PrCs would be best done carefully with a great deal of testing; unique scripted abilities developed by random nwvault contributors can be pretty dodgy in their implementation. To me, it makes more sense to pick maybe 3 or 4 PrCs to develop/test/adopt in parallel, so this whole effort doesn't have to be repeated every time we get one person who wants to get their own personal wish-list PrC into the game.

[Blindhamsterman]

I can see the logic there, certainly AL. The question is are there any that folk want? I'd be quite happy to help with such an endevour.

I know danielmn wants runecaster, but i've not seen much about the class?

[Keryn]

Ok I'll chime in just to address one situation, since i think the discussion around the abilities/powers of the PRC are quite easy to identify with all the resources we have and then it comes down specially to standards. The first review Blind did was spot on and Ith went on with a few valid points that would certainly make sense.

Now even though I'm totally unaware of the process behind build a new PRC, I think we have to look at it in two perspectives.

1 - ALFA wishes to add some PRCs because ALFA thinks they should be there. So it requires the effort of tech guys to bring them in and from what I know its not in the top of the list of things to do which I agree since we have other, more pressing issues. but in the end it might virtually never be in the top of the list.

2 - We have a PRC which is in all fairness popular due to its RP flavor, we have had several players showing interest in it, and we have someone with the skills (I think) to make it happen and put it to test (Holly and Veilan most likely the test guys on the IG side.) and most likely a review from AL to make sure the PRC is not conflicting with our systems. (which might the be worse since AL time seems to be sort of limited). Fact is while we might add some PRCs that might never even be used IG, as i look at the list of players playing elves which is huge... over 10 currently, and active, and as i think of the Pcs that showed interest in the PRC, I would say more then 4 certainly. I'm sure this PRC will not be wasted time, and is something that would benefit more then one player.

Ultimately I think ALFA as a community should certainly focus in developing consistently, though it is also very important to try and incorporate the needs of the players who keep this community what it is, in that regard Blind , Ith, have been around for a time, Blind has his PCs since day 1 looking into this, and it is a massive let down to see all this sort of stuck without any light in the end of the tunnel, which leads to some frustration. I'm just saying that maybe if blind can do the tech work, maybe we could try and look into it... if we wait to add all PRCs at once, his PC already at a quite high level and with a DM working with him on his PRC quest... might be stuck for years... without a glimpse of when it might happen. Doesn't sound optimal, specially since like blind pointed out, this discussion was brought up one year ago... and if it isn't done now... next year we will be having it again...