XP and GP and HD, oh my!

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hollyfant
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XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by hollyfant »

I have an... "odd" request.

Could DMs and statics please stop giving so much XP?


No, I'm actually being serious.

I find it impossible to keep my character's wealth comparable to her level. If ever a DM throws an encounter with a fair Challenge Rating on my path, I'm in trouble. My PC simply cannot afford the stacks of consumables and the magical weapons characters of her level are "supposed" to have. Statics intended to get a character off the mark, do exactly that. They hand out generous XP, but are decidedly stingy when it comes to gold. And DMs... I love 'em, one and all. Really. One and three quarter thumbs up. But almost every event, almost every quest and almost every adventure yields negative profit. They cost bullets, potions, scrolls, bribes and visits to the local priests. Fair enough, that. But there's rarely any booty, loot or bounty to be had. Unless it's of the "sell it for 50% of the value and divide the money between four PCs" sort.

Yes, hollyfant is whining again. But the bottom line is: most if not all of my characters were underwealthed (or overleveled, take your pick). When I can't get the stuff I want, that's too bad. When I can't afford the stuff I need, that's serious. But when I can't afford any more DM events, that's... well, that's ridiculous. So please. Cut the XP, and hand out alms instead. Preferably in the form of gear not available in any shops. :wink:
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Mick »

Are you kidding? Seriously. Tell me you are kidding.

When confronted with a perceived imbalance in the two types of rewards a PC can get that affect PC survival, why on earth would you ask for a diminished amount of the one you are getting?

I could not disagree with this suggestion more.
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Kest
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Kest »

maybe they could give out alms *and* xp?

i dunno, maybe that is backwards thinking
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Rotku »

Will happily meet that request for you, holly :twisted:

I'm sure you've noticed that I've handed out absolutely no wealth rewards yet, despite having gone through 10+ hours of playing. Let's just say I'm aware of this and it has been on purpose. I prefer to give out a more meaningful reward at the end of a quest, than many small, less meaningful rewards, as it proceeds. Hence what you see.
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by hollyfant »

No, I'm not kidding. I perceive an imbalance in the XP/GP ratio. It's what our wealth guideline is for, but I'm not sure DMs and builders care much for its enforcement.

PCs that are too low on money (or too high in level) can't match their CR (challenge rating). They are underpowered and understocked. It doesn't need to be a problem, but it can be.

Of course I'd rather keep the XP flowing and just open the money tap to match. But it's not a true lack of gold that is the problem, it's the balance. I can't speak for your PC or anyone else's for that matter, but mine would be more helped with gear worth 1000gp than with 2000xp. And that means something is skewed.
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by johnlewismcleod »

K....guilty as charged :oops:

I've been concentrating on not killing any PC's on accident, but I suppose I could concentrate a bit more on the reward guidelines instead :twisted:

Heh...just kidding, mate...duly noted :wink:
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by danielmn »

HA!

I've just been concentrating on playing the bull dog! :x :evil: :twisted: RAWR RAWR RAWR RAWR RAWR!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by oldgrayrogue »

I'm willing to bet my PC's net worth is below the low end of our wealth guidelines, and that he's one of the more well off PC's on TSM. The fact is, if you don't go out and kill spawns wealth is very hard to come by. I too encourage rewards of gold/items. For example, if an event yields a bunch of combat XP, reward with a chest of gold or a nifty weapon or some such on a corpse instead -- or both. As long as it stays within standards its not a problem, right?
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by AcadiusLost »

XP is an invisible, semi-OOC measure of your PC's progress to the next plateau of character-class-based power. It accumulates at some level by itself (through scripted RPXP) and may be awarded at any time by a DM's discretion.

Gold/gear/potions/networth, on the other hand, is very much In-Character. It doesn't automatically rain from the sky after a particularly pivotal moment in your PC's development, or at the end of a five-hour session. There are recommendations to aid DMs in deciding what may be a reasonable sum to award for completion of an IC task, but there will be many times in which the task won't have been completed, the task-giver is penniless/destitute/sneaking out the back door without paying up. The wealth guidelines, similarly, are tools for DMs to use in planning ahead for rewards- not rules that static content are meant to adapt to. When a PC goes significantly "underawarded" for long enough, it leaves a wide range of freedom to the DMs who may run plots involving a customized reward down the line. The more significant such a reward might be, the less likely a DM is to drop it in a PC's lap without some prolonged interactions. Even the standard "low-end" magical gear (+1 AC, +1 enchantment) has values from 1000gp - 2500 gp, so most low-level PCs would have to be pretty significantly under par wealthwise to "qualify" for that sort of award. Conversely, a PC who is already at or above recommended wealth for their level, on the other hand, will tend to receive less and smaller rewards in terms of gear/consumables/gold.

I believe is it true that a large majority of the NWN2 PCs in ALFA are significantly below the "recommended" wealth levels in the DM guidelines. The reasons for this are many-fold, but I expect the primary one is a lack of prolonged DM-player contact due to DM staff shortages and turnover, combined with player turnover. I would also say that we've not entirely adjusted to the "new" way of doing things, in which scripted RPXP takes an increasingly large place in the total XP of PCs.

Certainly, DMs should feel comfortable finding excuses here and there when possible to send some gold, potions, masterwork weapons/armor, and other such networth type items along towards underwealth'd PCs. But, since these are IC things, they do beg IC justification for consistency's purpose. Totally incongruous windfalls can be just as disruptive (if not more so) than being poor IC, and engender ill will amongst everyone who had the misfortune to miss the day the skies rained gold crowns :eew: .

To sum up:

Low-end rewards (+1-+2 skill, scrolls, potions, MW items) are Good Things.

GP rewards are Good Things, as they are incremental and put some freedom/choice into the hands of the player with regard to "gear purchase".

Expecting scripted content to balance the books and bring everyone to "D&D Average Power and Wealth by Level" is just not realistic. DMs are the best enabled to make intelligent and context-appropriate rewards available, but they're quite rightly going to make PCs "earn" those rewards (even if the players may feel they've "earned" them already due to past activities which the DM was not present for). So, as players, the best approach is to be patient, participate in DM'ed events and during DM timeslots when possible, try not to retire/die too often, and focus on enjoying the game rather than worrying about how your PC would fare against a "standard level based CR challenge" or where they fit on a standardized wealth table.
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Rotku »

AL, stop it! Stop been so sensible and reasonable! :P
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Brokenbone »

AL's post is good.

This is almost entirely unrelated though, unless taken as an alternative to "pennies from heaven" type lump awards, and it's meant to address DMless wealth acquisition. I have no idea if "spawncamp" type functions are used in ALFA NWN2 servers, but if systems related to that ported over from ALFA NWN1, there is a certain amount of flexibility in spawning things like placeables (with inventories) as opposed to just critters. This is mentioned only from the perspective of drops from non-intelligent / non-acquisitive mobs. Spawn a group of three hungry predators, maybe there's also a goblin corpse placeable that spawns with the group say 10% of the time, with some paltry supplies on it (which those wolves, bears, or whatever, are uninterested in spending/drinking/using). Defeat or better yet, avoid the toothy clawed death machines, and see if the goblin had anything on it.

Same goes for more complex spawncamp arrangements where within a small radius of a waypoint you can expect a spawn of 2-4 humanoids, a cookpot placeable, a couple little garbage / midden heaps, tent, maybe a sittable stool, and what everyone's really waiting for, a loot bag (scripted for some appropriate little bit of loot, perhaps larger than just for killing the critters based on a percentage chance that the loot bag doesn't appear at all) someplace in the little random camp.

Random looking scenes, absent a DM, don't (or in NWN1 didn't) necessarily need to be strictly 100% creatures... decorations like scattered papers, garbage, campfires, bloodstains, piles of bones, or little bits of treasure NOT within those critters' inventories, seemed possible as long as they were in the palette someplace to be called up. This isn't a solution to the overall problem that XP:GP DM guidelines on ratios kind of go off the rails when there's an XP-only thing happening in terms of both an RPXP "clock" and statics that may be decent XP but only IC levels of GP reward (i.e., 50xp to rescue a cat from a tree doesn't mean a little girl will pay you 75gp to keep with a 1.5 ratio). Still, it's one of probably many ideas one could come up with for evening things out, without it feeling too much like people stumbling into enormous rewards, it raining gold without risk, or having much predictability (i.e., "I know there's a camp around here that sometimes spawns with a full plate in a loot bag...")
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Riotnrrd »

To speak to Holly's point, I concur... I don't feel GP / XP is particularly balanced, at least on the only server I've played on!

The only reason this is a problem is if DMs gear encounters towards a party's average level. IE if I drop an EL 5 monster on a party of 4 PCs, and if it requires +1 weapons to hit and no one has one, the party is pretty much screwed.

As long as DMs are accounting for low wealth PCs (which requires more than a little knowledge of your player party), this isn't a problem.

It would be great if we could see the numbers of wealth per level per CLASS. It has been suggested that 'tanks' have more wealth on TSM. Can we get some numbers to back this up or refute it? If it turns out that certain classes are wealthier than others, maybe we could balance the way rewards are given. IE if rogues are low wealth on a particular server (I'm talking about severe imbalances, not the little stuff), maybe we could integrate more content that allows rogues to gain gold (like locked chests and doors, secret rooms, etc).
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by danielmn »

I gotcha numbers. I am 10 K under the LOW end wealth level for my current level (which to be fair I just hit), so that's around 1/3 total.
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by johnlewismcleod »

Riotnrrd wrote:It would be great if we could see the numbers of wealth per level per CLASS. It has been suggested that 'tanks' have more wealth on TSM. Can we get some numbers to back this up or refute it? If it turns out that certain classes are wealthier than others, maybe we could balance the way rewards are given. IE if rogues are low wealth on a particular server (I'm talking about severe imbalances, not the little stuff), maybe we could integrate more content that allows rogues to gain gold (like locked chests and doors, secret rooms, etc).
Sans numbers, this has been hashed at some depths periodically and with great clarity recently. I have personal knowlege of this disparity and the fixes will require quite a bit of work (meaning they won't be quick in coming). If you missed the last discussion it is here:

http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 52&t=42766

But don't peak at it until you have some time to spend, heh :lol:

If the subject needs to again be hashed...so be it. But IMO the DM guidelines give direction on this for DMed events, and I admittedly have been negligent in following the GP guidelines. As AL, Broken, and Rotku pointed out, IG relevence to the quests cannot be ignored for the sake of realism, but I intend to look for ways to insert some wealth rewards as per our DM guidelines whenever possible.

Thanks for the reminder, Hollyfant and OGR :D
I seek plunder....and succulent greens


[Wynna] Chula Lysander: [Talk] *Shakes head* I've been in worse situations. He was just....unjoyful! *stomps foot*


Retired PC's: Torquil, Gwenevere
Former PC's: Rugo, Flora, Rory Mor
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Brokenbone
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Re: XP and GP and HD, oh my!

Post by Brokenbone »

"One shot" DM events are where you can make up a fairly credible set of reasons for a perfectly tailored reward that suits a challenge. Even if it has to be in terms of a rich old man in a tavern agreeing to pay $X if a task gets achieved. The rich old man doesn't need a deep backstory or to ever be used again, unless the DM is making some series of events look like one-shots, but actually trying to lay groundwork for a different goal. This works in big cities, there's plenty of traders, agents of high muckety-mucks, etc. Tougher in a small village though, someone throwing around gold by the bucket gets noticed and should have a longer range IC impact, NPCs taking account of it, people talking about it for weeks, etc.

Again though, I think the comment/critique is more about the DMless stuff, XP coming in at a much faster rate than GP. If that needs fixing, it means finding IC excuses to simulate the XP:GP ratios that should come up in DMless events, OOC reduction of XP to match the small (but IC) GP rewards, or I guess a third option is to have some high GP, low XP things taking place. That third option probably means not a lot of risk being taken (which is often what goes into XP decisions), but still something valuable should result from an effort. Maybe this is where some creativity about such limited, non-custom skill uses could come in:
- any old (or every old) tavern which has more than scum / peasant patrons, add a dialogue to the barman that lets anyone who can either "take 10" on a perform roll, automatically gain a few gold from the crowd and probably limited or zero XP, or anyone who can't just take 10 can make a roll, getting zero gold and an insult or two if they can't beat DC10, a few gold if they hit 10, few more for DC 15, 20, 25, 30, etc.
- recycle that script in a dozen places, where you assist a sage with either take 10 Lore stuff, or scrape out a few more coins than that for extremely high rolls on a list of random 1/d research topics (ideally custom skills would differentiate this for some point in the future but oh well.
- same goes for an infirmary where you apply your professional Healing skills to basic problems for those unable to afford Cure spells, or "try your chances" at more difficult problems with higher DCs (maybe some minor or major drawbacks if you gamble too much on the topic, like kill a patient and you won't be helping this bloodletter again...)
- tinker at a stall who needs help fixing a doohickey (disable device) or a shady tinker who needs help opening a doohickey for the um... "rightful owner wink wink" (open locks, maybe pick helping with a DC20 box or a DC 25 box or whatever, or failing and losing your chance for the day or the server next resets).
- helping illiterate peasants with basic pleas/arguments/writs/whatever at the local city bureacrat's for a couple of goldpieces on successful diplomacy checks... there'll always be someone willing to pay a city slicker to help get some decision made in their stinking bumpkin favor.
- net of the above is basically trying to dream up a couple ways to use some skills to eke out a living, most could probably run off the same kind of script (make check of DC X, get GP $Z), even based on stuff like ancient Old Man Whistler scripts... may make for some boring repetitive conversations but that's where creativity can be applied. *shrugs* Maybe it's a hyper gnomish tinker who offers disable-device help, maybe it's a creepy old sage who's entirely too interested in the genealogy of some damsel he's obviously stalking, who has all your Lore help? Whatever. Couple shekels, couple laughs, all good.
ALFA NWN2 PCs: Rhaggot of the Bruised-Eye, and Bamshogbo
ALFA NWN1 PC: Jacobim Foxmantle
ALFA NWN1 Dead PC: Jon Shieldjack

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