No statics for solos, and a rant

[HATEFACE]

Wynna I'm sorry if these opinions offend, but I think everyone right now feels a bit slighted.

DMs are putting in tonnes of effort into adding content and rightfully feel slighted when the players complain about the result.

Players likewise are putting in many hours developing toons only to find that all the adventure based content is either far too difficult for their toons or doesn't reward enough to even cover the cost incurred while taking on the challenge. To compound this the new DM content only seems to exacerbate the problem rather than solve it.

So basically both sides are putting in effort and receiving frustration in turn.

Maybe we need a different way of approaching the situation?

We need a return to pre-quake ALFA. Elect me as your warlord and I will crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and you will hear the lamentation of the women!

Daniel is right. Sorry to say this, but this isn't Baldur's Gate; where level 2 is granted rather quickly. While at the moment the reward vs risk is far too strict and obsurd. I think the length daniel described is rather accurate. I would rather work for every level I obtain rather than to have it granted to me with virtually little effort. Grinding to do quests just obtain level two for the sake of obtaining level two just isn't fun for me. Maybe I'm out of touch with ALFA or maybe ALFA is out of touch with me, I dunno.

Increase more xp per monster kill. Increase treasure in some difficult areas. Increase in drop l00t, it doesn't need to be fancy it just needs to BE. Frusteration arises when PCs constantly risk their lives for nothing. I understand that monsters shouldn't drop all the time but come on! Throw us a motherfuckin' bone! You can either nueter or let us hump the b!tch, but if you prevent us from humping the b!tch, we'll just move on to the neighbors'.(wha?)

If there is anything the player base can do to lighten the burden, let us know. We would be more than happy to help you. Maybe its time that builders reach out to whoever they can in order to get the job done. Some of the best servers and "pretty" ones at that had help from players. It doesn't take much to whine about ALFA but it takes a lot to do something about it. Try not to alienate us, we just want to make ALFA better too. (With that, I'm going to take up the NWN2 toolset and do my best.)

[Sintaqx]

We all feel some frustration here, but realize that our DMs a) have limited time and their own lives, b) a rather large playerbase to deal with, c) constraints from the game itself and d) constraints from the ALFA administration.... It's a juggling act on the best of days. ALFA in NWN2 is nascent yet, there are many bugs to work out, both in the actual building, and in the balance of a live server. The best thing to do is, with an idea of what is expected according to the ALFA standards (such as they are), politely demonstrate a problem and suggest a possible solution. Sometimes the suggestions will not be used for some reason, but I don't think they are ignored. The DM's aren't brick walls, nor are they superhuman... except Wynna... and AL... and Indio... and Darren... and HR.... ok, maybe they are .

From the player side, the interface takes alot of getting used to in a multiplayer environment. I accidentally hit my own animal companion with a critical hit in the middle of a battle, have accidentally consumed a potion, and barely survived a combat encounter with a single gnoll, lag, and a whole bunch of miss-clicks. As a player I like to see alot of content, activities to do without a DM around, and DM interaction on occasion. TSM is seeing more content, and has begun (key word) seeing non-dm activities in the form of static quests. These static quests need to be balanced in their awards for their required time, their risk, for the target level user, and for the average number of party members recommended for completing the quest. This takes time to do. As for DM interaction, when a DM is building they cannot DM. With players clamoring for content and statics, there is not much time left to DM if there is going to be anything else done.

In my company we had to display this sign in the office. It's a web-based company and there are two developers, one of whom deals almost exclusively with maintenance. So anything new, or any huge improvement requests we have to tell the requester to pick two.



In my experience the rewards for patience are worth the pain.

As far as the statics are concerned, level 1 characters are little better than mud-farmers. Sure, they all have their own exciting tales and agendas, but the reality is a bear's sneeze could knock them unconscious. The majority of the statics I have seen (rivermoot and HH ones so far) require a level 2 or 3 character or two to accompany the level 1 to complete them (as evidenced by the plethora of corpses that have been found). There are maybe two solo quests if you are level 1. I remember playing in Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate, running the statics there, and reaching level 2 in just over a couple hours. I think that's what people are wanting to see here, and it's slowly getting that way, but you can't solo it.

Some of the quests, like the Silverwood and Silverymoon Pass quests in Silvy are insane, especially for the risk/reward. We did the Silverymoon Pass and encountered two bears and a mountain lion on the road. it took, I'd guess, 100gp worth of healing and 5 characters (3 lvl 4, 1 lvl 2, 1 lvl 3) to get the 20gp/20xp reward, and only by smashing through an orc camp and finding loot was it remotely worth it. However, this is easilly changed, I think, once the DMs are made aware of the problem.

[Mikayla]

Alright, since AL said that constructive criticism is welcome:

My PC is 4th level, as virtually everyone knows. I doubt I am near the lead of the 4th level pack these days, as my rate gain of XP has slowed dramatically since taking up guard duty on the bridge. Nevertheless, my character has killed a truly impressive number of orcs and gnolls.

So ... despite guard duty on the bridge, my PC has still been helping new folks complete quests, going on raids agaist the orcs, etc.

Since the supposed change in loot, I have killed dozens and dozens of orcs and such, but only seen two loot drops - once was a Cure moderate potion (off the named leader in the orc mines), and once the loot was a Sandine worth 4 gp that I cannot seem to sell to any merchant as well as a rusty kama and 1 gp. Compared the numbers of CLW potions and greenberries and everything spent adventuring, generally speaking, adventuring is a serious money-losing proposition. The only money I make these days is when I find a dead adventurer and sell their stuff. And thats only happened twice in all my time. Accordingly, I don't think I am even close to the "low" end of wealth for a 4th level PC, and I think my experience is pretty typical.

So, the constructive part of my critique is this - I think it may be time for another slight adjustment upwards in loot - I don't think the average wealth of 3rd and 4th level PCs even approaches the low end of wealth for their levels, let alone the supposed "average" level of wealth we are supposed to be at. I have heard rumors of one 4th level PC who might be at "average" wealth, but thats it. And "average" is supposed to mean "in the middle" or something to that effect.

And the problem here is not "unfairness" - we are all poor - the problem is in encounters - CR and encounter level difficulty presumes a certain amount of equipment based upon your level. And basically, none of us at 3rd or 4th level are at or anywhere near that level of equipment, meaning we are underpowered for appropriate CR encounters.

[Mulu]

AL, none of your post addressed the ever increasing difficulty of getting past levels 1-2. It seems that is simply not a concern of the teams. None of you care about the hamburger grinder of low level, all you care about is recreating the very flawed design of ALFA NWN1, now with even more nerfing and class/race restrictions than before, and all of these decisions are obviously absolutely unchangeable. The people you are leaving out in your server design are the majority of good RPers, and it's not like there are many potential players left out there. NWN2 was largely a multi-player bust, just look at the gamespy statistics. They are already on the decline 2 years post release.

Such a waste. Good thing I have IC friends to RP with, because there is very little in the server itself that motivates me to continue playing, and a lot that unmotivates me. I hope to see some of you in other places too, like NWC, The Hero's Stone, and Exodus which I think I'll try next.

[HATEFACE]

And the problem here is not "unfairness" - we are all poor - the problem is in encounters - CR and encounter level difficulty presumes a certain amount of equipment based upon your level. And basically, none of us at 3rd or 4th level are at or anywhere near that level of equipment, meaning we are underpowered for appropriate CR encounters.

Well said and might I add the feeling of "ratrace asshurt" is directly tied into "the widened divide" in level some players feel. Do you think a sort of "stop gap" XP solution would be a viable option?

[MorbidKate]

If the NPC questgiver's conversation lead you to believe the boar would be a pushover, that can be reworded.

To be honest, the problem of the non-repeatable statics isn't a matter of wording. They are just far too difficult for who they're intended for. If the purpose of non-repeatable statics is to help push the player closer to Level 2 then they should not be armored to have such a high mortality rate and need the involvement of several higher level toons to help do them.

With loot drops next to nothing and repeatable statics either too deadly to attempt or pulled for repair the economy is based off the selling dead Level 1's gear. If you look at the wealthiest and best equipped players I suspect they managed it by finding the bloated carcasses of frustrated Level 1s. Not healthy.

Kate

[HATEFACE]

AL, none of your post addressed the ever increasing difficulty of getting past levels 1-2. It seems that is simply not a concern of the teams. None of you care about the hamburger grinder of low level, all you care about is recreating the very flawed design of ALFA NWN1, now with even more nerfing and class/race restrictions than before, and all of these decisions are obviously absolutely unchangeable. The people you are leaving out in your server design are the majority of good RPers, and it's not like there are many potential players left out there. NWN2 was largely a multi-player bust, just look at the gamespy statistics. They are already on the decline 2 years post release.

Such a waste. Good thing I have IC friends to RP with, because there is very little in the server itself that motivates me to continue playing, and a lot that unmotivates me. I hope to see some of you in other places too, like NWC, The Hero's Stone, and Exodus which I think I'll try next.

Whine whine whine, that's all you ever do. Whine whine whine, until your face turns blue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You keep saying that. "Good thing I got so and so to keep me here or else I'm out, peace, see ya, good bye, arivaderche." Threatening (however passive aggressive) the build team by leaving could be counter productive. Personally, I wouldn't mind if you GTFO because you sound a awful lot like Danubus. We're all human and I'm sure AL is doing the best he can. Let's try to remain high spirited and productive here. Who knows, maybe its up to us to remain motivated and contribute to ALFA. Now, I can build areas and stuff using the NWN2 toolset. (downright poorly) but that won't stop me from trying. ALFA is a good thing and I don't want to see it go the way of teh dinosaur.

In my experience the rewards for patience are worth the pain.

As far as the statics are concerned, level 1 characters are little better than mud-farmers. Sure, they all have their own exciting tales and agendas, but the reality is a bear's sneeze could knock them unconscious. The majority of the statics I have seen (rivermoot and HH ones so far) require a level 2 or 3 character or two to accompany the level 1 to complete them (as evidenced by the plethora of corpses that have been found). There are maybe two solo quests if you are level 1. I remember playing in Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate, running the statics there, and reaching level 2 in just over a couple hours. I think that's what people are wanting to see here, and it's slowly getting that way, but you can't solo it.

Yes, rewards for (painful?) patiencs are (should be) worth the pain.

1. "As far as the statics are concerned, level 1 characters are little better than mud-farmers. Sure, they all have their own exciting tales and agendas, but the reality is a bear's sneeze could knock them unconscious." "HELLO YOU ARE WRONG!" This perception is due to the later years of ALFA that lead to the decline in player base. Level 1 is the sum of your experiances which lead you to that class. In other words "from peon to paladin." journey. You are not a mud-farmer, nor are you seasoned but you have the basic learnings and basic premise of that class. (there is a wizard of the Coast article somewhere.) The statics should be geared toward that end. Statics: From the sound of it they're too difficult and testing will be required to establish a good balance between "Group, solo, combat, non-combat." types. Also a increase in variablility types would be appreciated, "Heavy load bare, light load bare, research, basic item development." The bear sneeze bit is an exaggeration but I can see where you are coming from. DMs in ALFA either under-estimate or over-estimate the survivability of level one characters. Its rare that they ever hit it spot on.

[MorbidKate]

AL, none of your post addressed the ever increasing difficulty of getting past levels 1-2. It seems that is simply not a concern of the teams. None of you care about the hamburger grinder of low level, all you care about is recreating the very flawed design of ALFA NWN1, now with even more nerfing and class/race restrictions than before, and all of these decisions are obviously absolutely unchangeable. The people you are leaving out in your server design are the majority of good RPers, and it's not like there are many potential players left out there. NWN2 was largely a multi-player bust, just look at the gamespy statistics. They are already on the decline 2 years post release.

Mulu,

I wouldn't say it's not a concern or that they don't care. As an ex-HDM I can tell you it's draining and frustrating when you are understaffed. It's all about puting out fires and fixing things with little time to sit back and take a look at what's happening IG and the effect of changes. Heck, there's little time to actually DM with all the overhead involved in running a server.

I for one am glad loot has been almost invisible to date. Better to bump it up bit by bit than try to pull it back in later. My concern over loot is that the critters in play in many cases exceed the players ability to fight them as they otherwise might have and for that I agree with Mik.

The critters that defend the non-repeatable and overly low reward repeatable statics is the biggest problem but it's also easily fixed. Just scale back the critters around the non-repeatables so that a couple of Level 1s can manage them and get a start towards Level 2 and either drop the critter CR on the roads around Silvy woods and pass or give more coin for doing them. If combat is intended then at least reward players properly. Getting 20gp afterwards when a fight is assured is frustrating when you consider a single CLW costs about 35gp. It basically kills the static.

Kate

[Mikayla]

In contrast to what Mulu has said, I definitely believe the DMs care and Acadius too - Acadius devotes WAY too much of his time to this server and to ALFA not to care. I think its clear that he cares A LOT. So, lest the powers that be think I (and others) are un-appreciative - far from it.

Also, Kate said something very clearly that I was trying to say but may have said in muddled form, so I will repeat what Kate wrote:

With loot drops next to nothing and repeatable statics either too deadly to attempt or pulled for repair the economy is based off the selling dead Level 1's gear. If you look at the wealthiest and best equipped players I suspect they managed it by finding the bloated carcasses of frustrated Level 1s. Not healthy.

Thats basically the truth - the basis for the PC economy in TSM is not DM events, or jobs, or statics, or adventuring of any sort - its looting dead 1st level PCs. Much like TVS in the Beta days of NWN1. I don't think that is what the DMs intended at all, but its where we are at currently. You have a lot of new folks struggling to make 2nd level and 3rd level, and meanwhile you have a few 3rd and 4th level PCs, whose major hope every given night is to find some dead 1st or 2nd level PCs. It gives the Silvermarches a really depressing, cynical feel to the RP as the few bloody survivors become every more jaded and inured to robbing their dead comrades.

[AcadiusLost]

To be honest, the problem of the non-repeatable statics isn't a matter of wording. They are just far too difficult for who they're intended for.

The High Hold quests are more intended for level 3-4 PCs, at least most of the "raid" ones. When playing a beginning adventurer, I'm certainly not going to attempt a quest that says "go down into a dangerous lair, and kill the leader (or three leaders) of a monster cult". It'd be insane, and no level of OOC desire to "level my PC out of instakill danger" would entice me to try my luck at such a quest. Other IC pressures might, but the presumption should never be that, because a static is there, it's going to be a cakewalk for a PC of level X. The Fens ghoul and Boar tusk quests don't stand out immediately to me as Deadly Quests from their descriptions, so they could probably use some adjustment (either to the description, or the difficulty), if 1st level PCs are expecting something along the lines of Kobold Runt or Tusker Hunger from them. Most of the rivermoot statics were designed with level 1-2s in mind, though the "third stage" ones (Nasty Bug, Fort) are pretty tough without backup.

With loot drops next to nothing and repeatable statics either too deadly to attempt or pulled for repair the economy is based off the selling dead Level 1's gear.

I suspect the loot system is not working as intended, on the basis of what I'm hearing in a few of the above posts. If so, some of this is due to a bug, which can be fixed, provided we get accurate information and reporting, instead of rants and aimless complaints. So, let's keep the information coming, and the vitriol to a minumum, if possible.

[HATEFACE]

To be honest, the problem of the non-repeatable statics isn't a matter of wording. They are just far too difficult for who they're intended for.

The High Hold quests are more intended for level 3-4 PCs, at least most of the "raid" ones. When playing a beginning adventurer, I'm certainly not going to attempt a quest that says "go down into a dangerous lair, and kill the leader (or three leaders) of a monster cult". It'd be insane, and no level of OOC desire to "level my PC out of instakill danger" would entice me to try my luck at such a quest. Other IC pressures might, but the presumption should never be that, because a static is there, it's going to be a cakewalk for a PC of level X. The Fens ghoul and Boar tusk quests don't stand out immediately to me as Deadly Quests from their descriptions, so they could probably use some adjustment (either to the description, or the difficulty), if 1st level PCs are expecting something along the lines of Kobold Runt or Tusker Hunger from them. Most of the rivermoot statics were designed with level 1-2s in mind, though the "third stage" ones (Nasty Bug, Fort) are pretty tough without backup.

With loot drops next to nothing and repeatable statics either too deadly to attempt or pulled for repair the economy is based off the selling dead Level 1's gear.

I suspect the loot system is not working as intended, on the basis of what I'm hearing in a few of the above posts. If so, some of this is due to a bug, which can be fixed, provided we get accurate information and reporting, instead of rants and aimless complaints. So, let's keep the information coming, and the vitriol to a minumum, if possible.

A while back one of the templars found a halbred after we destroyed a cave full of monsters. It was in that area with the cutted down trees. Does that help?

[MorbidKate]

The High Hold quests are more intended for level 3-4 PCs, at least most of the "raid" ones.

Seeing that Level 1s start out just a few maps to the west of High Hold I'm suprised that the statics there would be targetted for players twice their level. The proximity and the only working road out of Rivermoot means most players will find High Hold around the time they reach Level 2, if not before. I would suggest the statics be targetted towards them and have Level 3-4 statics based out of Silvy. Once the RM statics are done... with help it's a very, very long haul to Level 3 and their bodies are providing the income the older toons need to buy their healing and kit.

I suspect the loot system is not working as intended, on the basis of what I'm hearing in a few of the above posts. If so, some of this is due to a bug, which can be fixed, provided we get accurate information and reporting, instead of rants and aimless complaints. So, let's keep the information coming, and the vitriol to a minumum, if possible.

The loot system is part of it but really, the main concern of players that I hear from is the high mortality rate attempting the RM statics and the Bataan death march trying to reach Level 3 and some survivability. It's so bad that it's common to see people going about or downright joking about doing carcass runs through the hills of Rivermoot in IRC.

And please don't take anything I say as a bash. It's certainly not intended to be seen as such.

Kate

[Magonushi]

Kate stop trolling.

[HATEFACE]

Kate stop trolling.

Pfft. Like I'm the only one allowed to troll. Stfu.

[danielmn]

Wow....just....wow.

Knowing full well the time and effort the crew puts in...and the time and effort in getting things fixed like drops...Damn.

"as to the last part thats personal preference as far as i am concerned."

Yeah, that's why I put "FOR PERSPECTIVE" at the beginning, to share, um, you know, my own personal veiw?


"Ofcourse you can RP when no dm is around, but to be honest you have to have something to talk ((AKA something a dm started or something based on a monster hunt) about unless we want to go into soap mode and have another version of alfa's brothers and sisters soap..
personally i have no interest in rping an hour about what the color of the water is and how it matches some elf womans eyes beautifully. THat is not my type of toon , if others want to. have a ball and i surely hope you have a good time. Something needs to happen now and then to rp about."

Again, I believe that is YOUR opinion. I am being blown away by the rp of the 4-12 PC's I run into everytime I play, learning backstories and forming comraderie... the lack of a dm presence is something I don't even think about in game. Again, that's just me...I enjoy RPing my PC and developing a story line....I enjoy less the logging in for dm campaign then not popping in till the next one...I like to KNOW the other PC's, which is often not doable in a dm time mode. I do have a ball, and will keep having a ball. I don't mind being low level...I don't mind being high level.
I am in no way flaming you or your position at all Witch, I think we have different mindsets when it comes to playing is all.

There is and will be a lot of dedication from people behind the scenes...
I see some valid concerns made known...and I see A LOT of WHHHAAAAA I no like level one let me be ubers! Get over it. Get over yourself. Quit making every damn thing about YOU. Try making the server better for those playing AROUND you, instead of expecting the server to satisfy your childish ego. We're grown ups here, everybody just take some deep breaths, step back a moment, and approach this beast from the angle of "what can I do to help out the situation?" (other than post like a child) rather than "Why am I not getting what I want!!??"

Seriously, I just read all the post before this, and for the majority of it, I felt like throwing up.
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