Dead!

[t-ice]

Well my own character Rugnar died fighting ogres that clearly didnt have ogre stats *shrugs*

Can't resist pointing out:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm
See "Ogre, 4th lvl Barbarian".

[Ithildur]

@Rorax:

thanks for the 2 cents.

Everything that you've posted (along with other significant factors that people probably aren't aware of) has already been well considered I'm quite sure by the players and DMs involved - none of them, least of all Ronan are new to ALFA.

The elven culture thing has been discussed as well, though this is the first I've heard of Flaar being raised in secret; I'm guessing it might be from one of the novels if that's true, as I've never seen it in a sourcebook anywhere in 3e/3.5e.

The final consequences are indeed between the DMs and players involved to determine.

I'm at a loss as to how this happened IC, and so am not interested in writing up anything on it.

Yeah. I cringe at possibly having to gloss over what may have been a lethal misdirection by PC/NPC due to ooc confusion.

So much irony behind this... *shakes head*

[Ronan]

Fflar's identity in the Last Mythal series was indeed kept secret. The elves in that series were from Evermeet though, and likely much more conservatively elven than your average Silvaeren.

My PC already had an IC rez, when a floor failure (yay flurry of blows) plus some crits got him killed while surrounded by allies. It was IC at the time because the toon was faithless and headed for the wall. I think the DM felt kinda bad, and after we looked up the rules regarding faithless he let his friends roll for a chance to raise him before Kelemvor judged him.

As a DM, I prefer toons that will accept a raise. It makes it easier to penalize them without outright murder. "You lose a level and maybe some or all of your gear" vs. "reroll, and now I need to find another PC for my campaign, sigh". The last two toons I've killed were nearly unrecoverable, but that was the nature of the IC circumstance (and their own damn faults, I might add).

To me its all about what is best for the server, DMs and players. Sometimes the IC path is set in stone and other times it can be fudged with ambiguity.

As for the point of this thread? Clearing names, I guess? I just thought I should post on it.

[Ithildur]

Ah those elves from Evermeet... a rather odd bunch they can be (except for those crazy Shaelara elves of course)! I bet they all had the Otherworldly (regional feat for Evermeet elves from PGtF, they're considered Native Outsiders not Humanoids) feat too, or at least pretended to!

Not everyone lives in a place that's already the closest thing to Arvandor on Toril, ya know.

[rorax]

From The Dream Spheres - by Elaine Cunningham

Elaith gave her a faint smile and a courtly bow. "I will consider myself warned. Lord Thann, what is that box?" he asked, more to distract the conversation than from any real interest.
Danilo shifted uneasily. "It's all that remains of Oth."
"Ah. Turning evidence over to the Watch. Very commendable," the elf murmured without much interest.
"Actually, I thought I'd turn this over to the Eltorchul clan for possible resurrection."
Outrage, quick and sharp and utterly elven, surged through Elaith. He noted that Arilyn's expression mir¬rored his thoughts. In this, at least, they were of like mind.
Resurrection, was it? Typical human arrogance! The elf could think of nothing more self-centered or more repugnant than disturbing the afterlife of friend or kindred.
"Why do you humans persist in doing this thing?" he demanded.
"Because we can, most likely," Danilo responded wearily. "It is hard to accept that a loved one is lost when magic exists that will call him back."

[Heero]

Elaine Cunningham on Candlekeep Forums circa March 2004.

01 Mar 2004
Richard makes a good point about novel/game continuity; namely, fiction writers need to acknowledge the existence of resurrection spells, while providing a reason why they shouldn't be used. (In fact, one of the challenges of writing in a magic-rich setting is finding ways to AVOID easy conflict resolution through powerful spells and people.)

Since many of my stories feature elves, I advanced the theory that disturbing the afterlife is an elven taboo. That was consistent with the existing lore of elven culture, and explained why many of my characters will not consider raising their fallen companions.

In Liriel's story, the only diety to whom she could pray was Lolth, so she had a very good reason not to seek resurrection. She knew that an evil goddess's "gifts" tend to come with a very large price tag.

That said, I've frequently been tempted to include a resurrection in a short story or novel, just to show why this shouldn't be done. People IRL who have near-death experiences often find that their lives are profoundly changed. It doesn't seem likely to me that a Realms character could return from death and pick up without missing a step. Surely there would be lingering effects, unforeseen consequences. It seems to me that all magic has a price -- and we're not just talking about the thousands of gold pieces needed to buy a resurrection spell.

Resurrection shouldn't be a cheap and easy solution in fiction. It should be rare and difficult, and because it's rare and difficult, it might occasionally become a useful characterization tool. For example, the elven afterlife is such a wondrous thing that disturbing it strikes me as an incredibly selfish act. It reminds me of something I saw in a gardening catalogue -- a little memorial stone with the following sentiment: "If tears could form a staircase and grief could forge a chain, I'd build a path to heaven and bring you back again." Not only is this dreadful doggerel, it's also incredibly self-centered. To paraphrase: "I miss you, so I would drag you out of Paradise if I could." Seen in this light, resurrection could be a powerful characterization tool, revealing the character seeking the resurrection spell as a self-absorbed git only concerned with his own wants and needs. Conversely, it could demonstrate that a cause is so important to the survivors that they consider the resurrection of a powerful ally more important than their own personal moral codes, or the deceased's eternal happiness.

Yes, much of the Elven lore many embrace comes from novels rather than sourcebooks; however, that it comes from a novel makes it no less canon (though some might argue that the ridiculous inconsistencies in FR are on account of, or at least contributed to by, all the novels, but thats another topic...).

[Brokenbone]

Interesting quotes and stuff. Easily taken in the "wrong spirit" though of critiquing / backseat driving on other folks RP. Still fine for other PCs, NPCs, to have a reaction to though based on culture and whatnot. IC reaction, not OOC shaming or something like that.

Anyhow, sounds like a very tough break (initial posts, and Ronan's summary).

[Heero]

Just to clarify, I am not trying to critique or backseat drive on anyone's RP. People are free to do as they like, and Elaine Cunningham's last sentence in the bit I posted clearly illustrates how it could be perfectly legitimate for some elfs to come on back to mess up some orc faces; I - and Im assuming rorax - simply wish to point out that the notion that Elves are generally reluctant to come back to the world of the living is a legitimate concept in FR canon regardless of what some might suggest.

[Brokenbone]

I don't think there's any bad intentions. But to put it in Heero accessible terms, it would be like sitting down to a disappointing meal of oven baked chicken wings, and then slowly, politely explaining why chicken wing popularity really owes its 80's and onwards place in our culture due to the efforts of Buffalonian cooking scientists. It makes the chicken wing bakers feel bad.

Same goes for people who enjoy playing elves but for whatever reason, desire or are talked into rezzes (same goes for clerics who should in many folks' opinion LOVE receiving their holy reward... unless pressed into hellish armies by an evil god), while there's people in the background citing various canon sources as to why this'd be an awful hard choice to support.

[Heero]

It makes the chicken wing bakers feel bad.

As they should.

[Ithildur]

Looks like there's some canon (or canonish) material out there that I wasn't aware of; ironically Elaine Cunningham is one of the few FR authors that I can tolerate. Good to know where this stuff is coming from.

I suspect that the perks that elves get in Elaine Cunningham's novels (better translated mechanically in earlier editions of DnD; she did after all write most of her elf novels before 3e came along) would never see the light of day in ALFA though.

If folks feels strongly about this being canonical, perhaps it should be noted in the ALFA Player's Handbook for the benefit of all potential elven RPers here.

Regardless, for those folks that are deeply worried about the what/why/how of possible decisions that are being weighed by other players and DMs, rest assured, involved parties are in fact taking all this, and other factors, into consideration.

[t-ice]

(same goes for clerics who should in many folks' opinion LOVE receiving their holy reward... unless pressed into hellish armies by an evil god)

Presumably many evil people would LOVE to be part of eternal, awesome armies that get to havoc, dominate and abuse to their black hearts content, too.
This ain't no abrahamic-morality Good aligned people go to heaven, Evil aligned people go to hell, thing. The definition of heaven just varies.

Generally I totally agree with the whole notion of "What is so important here that your character wants to be dragged out of (his idea of) paradise?" We could demand the analogue of a Extraordinary Character application detailing the reasonings for any IC raise, and expected effects on character development. I wouldn't mind reviewing them as part of a DM team. The idea isn't so much to deny apps, but to make players think more closely about their character and the World regarding a rezz - as opposed to their own desires to keep on playing their PC.

[rorax]

The idea isn't so much to deny apps, but to make players think more closely about their character and the World regarding a rezz - as opposed to their own desires to keep on playing their PC.

Yep, i think you phrased it really clear there. I've been there and that exactly that! and like i stated earlier , I then realized it was actually motived by the OOC desire rather than IC desire of the toon, all that eventually led that i willingly retired the toon myself.

[Darkmystic]

I do want to point out that there are several evil gods that gives evil people their "own" idea of heaven. I mean Tempus heaven says it all, you go there and you continue to fight forever. For some a nightmare, for others heaven.