No statics for solos, and a rant

[ThinkTank]

I'll give you XP curve!

[Mulu]

As I said before, I suspect that once we get a second server up we'll get more DM coverage, since people will be able to both play and DM. In the meantime, don't be afraid to ask IC and even OOC in tells for assistance getting over the low level hump. If someone acts snooty towards you, just cross that person off your list and go down to the next one. ALFA has plenty of people who like to play.

When did you say that?

Well, if it's important to you:
Wednesday May 7th, 2008.

With a second server more players will be willing to DM because they'll be able to play too, and that should help a lot. Most of the stresses we're experienc[ing] right now are from being crammed into a single server, with a very active playerbase. There is such a thing as too much density. The sweet spot for ALFA is probably 3 servers, unless we get a huge gain in membership.

Which is a very long winded way of saying "be patient."

[witch]

For perspective:

Level 2 in 2 1/2 weeks.

4 static quests completed, non of which were solo'd.

The rest...rp/xp awards.

About 1/3-1/2 xp came from rp/xp, which I think should be the bulk of xp, either through scripts or DM.

A slow transition from 1 to 2 gives you time to really get into your PC and hash out the feel of the PC as well as the background before major changes in your PC due to leveling take place.

you realises you have played an awful lot then daniel if you got 500xp from the script especially in 2,5 weeks.

as to the last part thats personal preference as far as i am concerned.

Ofcourse you can RP when no dm is around, but to be honest you have to have something to talk ((AKA something a dm started or something based on a monster hunt) about unless we want to go into soap mode and have another version of alfa's brothers and sisters soap..
personally i have no interest in rping an hour about what the color of the water is and how it matches some elf womans eyes beautifully. THat is not my type of toon , if others want to. have a ball and i surely hope you have a good time. Something needs to happen now and then to rp about.

the statics dont get people to level 2 unless your lucky and have some high level take you on a tour.

statics invoving a boar (tusker) (which apprantly wasnt 1 boar but 2!!) where an extra bear suddenly charges you as well out of nowhere aint for a LEVEL 1, Hell we did the static with a level 4 and 2 level 2's and it was an inch or we'd all be dead.. Now luckily we only lost 1 level 2 (aka someone who spend a ton of hours doing statics and rp for 3weeks to get to level 2, only to lose the toon due to overpowered static and lag) could be me but that aint making rp better..

so i wouldnt advice doing any of the high hold statics as level 1 unless you got atleast some high levels with you... or are a damm good sneak..

[Magonushi]

If you don't like overpowered statics my suggestion would be to go help other servers with theirs while they are in the beta process. The DMs there will appreciate the help and listen more closely to you about suggestions in overall difficulty vs. reward.

The Silver Marches team is great but right now the main prerogative for them doesn't seem to be decreasing difficulty or increasing rewards, but rather the opposite. Many players have repeatedly voiced their opinions about the quests being too hard especially for their target group, the low level characters. In response the quest rewards were lowered and higher level spawns were added between the towns and the mission points.

[Sintaqx]

Ofcourse you can RP when no dm is around, but to be honest you have to have something to talk ((AKA something a dm started or something based on a monster hunt) about unless we want to go into soap mode and have another version of alfa's brothers and sisters soap..
personally i have no interest in rping an hour about what the color of the water is and how it matches some elf womans eyes beautifully. THat is not my type of toon , if others want to. have a ball and i surely hope you have a good time. Something needs to happen now and then to rp about

While I can see how this is a general requirement, it is by no means a necessity. Because my character is first and foremost a scout I spend a metric buttload of time out in the middle of nowhere roleplaying scouting, hunting, tracking, and trapping. I just finished a 72 (game) hour stint not too long ago where I wandered the areas searching for new/hidden ATs and roleplaying scouting down and following orcs trails, alone. Granted, this particular thing is related to the Rivermoot war, but I do this kind of thing alot anyway.

It could be I am just weird though

[Mulu]

The Silver Marches team is great but right now the main prerogative for them doesn't seem to be decreasing difficulty or increasing rewards, but rather the opposite. Many players have repeatedly voiced their opinions about the quests being too hard especially for their target group, the low level characters. In response the quest rewards were lowered and higher level spawns were added between the towns and the mission points.

Yes, it's getting worse and worse with every server update, a fact which will eventually result in there eventually being no reason whatsoever to play here unless you already have a mid to high level toon, or you like being first level indefinitely, which is exactly what happened in NWN1 with all its dozen or so empty servers. Only this time it's taking weeks instead of years. Current ALFA leadership is totally clueless on this issue, all these changes are doing is increasing the distance between the PC's who are already out of the barn and those coming in, and making it exceptionally hard to get to a survivable level that can actually fight an orc without risking a high probability of death.

If the team and admin want to hit the brakes on leveling, make xp gain level sensitive and hit the brakes at level 4, HARD. Then to rebalance ease up on the early levels to let people join the campaign (i.e. level to 4) at a reasonable rate. We're one month past live and have 5th level PC's already who know exactly what to hunt to maximize their leveling rate. Nerfing statics that can only be done once isn't going to affect that fact at all, it's just going to prolong the first and second level hump for everyone else. This is so obvious that it amazes me it has to be stated. The error is profound.

I was recently beta testing a new PW written by a fellow NWC'ers called The Hero's Stone. It's an NWN1 server, which I actually prefer as I have much more control over my PC's actions (so far in TSM I've accidently thrown choking powder at the party during a conversation, drank potions of CLW when uninjured, used a potion of CLW on a monster, had offensive spells targeted at me instead of the monster, been forcefed potions of CLW when uninjured by others who were trying to heal themselves, etc).

Having never spoken to this member about PW's, he designed the PW I would have designed: PC's start at level 3, cap at level 7, and the gameworld is obviously balanced for that level range. Perfect. Well, I would have made it permadeath, but forgiving permadeath with slow bleeds and high chances of recovery and easy access to raise dead, just like most campaigns do in PnP and at NWC, because I think respawning is horribly OOC, so it isn't exactly the PW I would have made, but it's close. Then he added something very interesting where the campaign has chapters and is run by cohorts, so chapter 2 has a level range of 8-12 (and is presumably on a different server), chapter 3 goes up again, and chapter 4 finally caps at 20th level, at which time your PC retires. Brilliant. No rat race at all. We'll see how it actually works, but I applaud the creativity. An attempt to hybridize a PW with a balanced campaign.

ALFA instead is going to make every decision possible to increase the rat race and make playing here miserable for those who do not enjoy PG'ing or first level, in other words most RP'ers. Remember, nerfs only challenge PG'ers, and in the meantime frustrate non-PG'ers. It's colossally stupid to nerf without relation to level, because otherwise those nerfs will most affect the lowest level and least PG'ing PC's.

My wife is on summer break right now, she's actually a better RP'er than I am, and she absolutely refuses to play in ALFA (which means I'm not going to be here much over the summer, since we tend to play together when we can). Why does she absolutely refuse to play in ALFA? Because she knows she'll be stuck at second level for the whole summer, and she's right. Good job chasing away RP'ers team ALFA! Not all RP'ers like 1st and 2nd level.

Seriously, we're talking about a difference between being 2nd and 4th.... That would be enough for her and I suspect many others to play here and stay here. What a waste.

[Magonushi]

Mulu I share your concern but you've got to realize that your talking to a brick wall. That being said TSM should not be taken to represent all of ALFA. There will be other servers, and if properly encouraged by testing players, they should be much better at catering to RPers, who are stuck in the low level blues.

[Wynna]

OK, may I say that as the person on the other side of these insults, they hurt? Rather than 'clueless', I would term the TSM DM team 'overburdened'. The effort of keeping up with the current player load on one server as well as fix bugs and put in new content is telling on us all. Here are some facts that I would like to share with you, facts that the TSM and Admin team know but may have escaped those playing:

1. There are 32 current bios in the TSM DM forum. Those are all the major, active, long-term PCs. That doesn't count the day-to-day new PCs for players who haven't sent in bios.

2. There are no 5th level PCs in ALFA. There are 8 4th level PCs in ALFA. The first one made 4th on May 5. The last one on May 17. There are (by my count) 14 3rd level PCs in ALFA. These numbers do not seem excessive to me. Indeed, they seem to represent that levels 1-4 are being achieved in a satisfactory amount of time and that level 5 is taking time.

2a) I am currently DMing ~12 PCs ~twice a week in the Uni; b)two other small number plotlines regularly; c) the overall Rivermoot plot for the server when I can. These DM times/numbers of plots/PCs are representative of what the other DMs are DMing, too.

3. I spent ~16 hrs DMing last week.

4. I spent ~20 hrs toolsetting last week.

Those last are just my numbers and I am by far not the most active DM on the server. In short...we're not a brick wall. We're not trying to shut people out. Hell, it's the low level PCs I care more about and always have. I'm spending all my toolset time building statics specifically for 1-4 level arcane casters.

Please don't insult the people I work with. We're all scrambling to keep up on all fronts, even the ones you don't specifically see.

Thanks for reading.

[Mulu]

Wynna, the work that is being done is making things harder and harder for new PC's. Why? Why invest precious resources making things harder for low level peeps? I would much rather you guys spend your limited time reading bios, fixing bugs and DM'ing than nerfing statics and increasing hazards. I think a lot of us with 1st-2nd level PC's would. I've helped run a PW before, I know how much work it is, and I was once an RP and leveling Nazi. I've seen what happens when you make a game world too restrictive: It chokes. We already learned this in ALFA NWN1. Why are we repeating these mistakes? I'm pissed, because not only can I not get my wife to play here for her extremely legitimate reasons, but she's so right about this place I don't much feel like playing here anymore. I doubt I'm alone.

When it comes to bad decisions, banning traps, banning planetouched, banning favored souls and warlocks were all very bad decisions. But they are nothing compared to making leveling to survivability (level 4 IMO) a time consuming and rarely successful chore. More than any other decision, this one has the most potential to kill ALFA.

And lastly, 2 weeks to level two may be a lot slower than some on the server, for me that period of time from one until two is about right...2 weeks may even be too fast compared to what I am used to. A slow transition from 1 to 2 gives you time to really get into your PC and hash out the feel of the PC as well as the background before major changes in your PC due to leveling take place.

Dan, it's easy to avoid xp. You can play a slow leveling playstyle anywhere. But if all of ALFA is constricted to just this limited playstyle where 2nd level becomes a cap for months, well you'll kill ALFA. Trust me, there are far more good and even great RP'ers out there who hate levels 1-2 than there are who love them and want to stay in them indefinitely. How small do you want this sandbox to be? At this rate, we won't need any more servers. We won't have the membership to support more.

[fluffmonster]

I will sneak in here to emphasize one thing...we should be very careful about looking at sub-groups in making balance decisions. The trend I see is that balance is being assessed based on the most successful PCs and able players, and those players that can play the most. This will naturally create a gap between those PCs that are now lvl3 or 4 (and whom the server is tuned for), and the rest of us. I think Mulu is right in that regard, hyperbole aside. Tuning the server to a subgroup can't help but to result in a bifurcation in the player base.

Not that I matter much. As a casual player, I don't see much opportunity for advancement; I don't have much expectation of participating in a regular DMed campaign; the RP opportunities are superficial given the lack of consistent context I experience as a casual player. Its probably not reasonable for me to expect as much from ALFA as I used to I guess.

[Magonushi]

Wynna I'm sorry if these opinions offend, but I think everyone right now feels a bit slighted.

DMs are putting in tonnes of effort into adding content and rightfully feel slighted when the players complain about the result.

Players likewise are putting in many hours developing toons only to find that all the adventure based content is either far too difficult for their toons or doesn't reward enough to even cover the cost incurred while taking on the challenge. To compound this the new DM content only seems to exacerbate the problem rather than solve it.

So basically both sides are putting in effort and receiving frustration in turn.

Maybe we need a different way of approaching the situation?

[MorbidKate]

The TSM crew being grossly understaffed is really putting a squeeze on everyone. Players are getting frustrated and the whose who build and/or DM are getting burned out and frustrated as well.

As for the Level 1 blues, even though the statics are not repeatable and are intended for low levels they've been uparmored to the point now where even a pack of Level 1s would be wiped out trying them. And even if they did all the Rivermoot statics, they'd only get about 550xp at great risk to their character concept. The rest of the xp for the vast majority will come from the RPXP script alone. That's why barely anyone has bothered writing, let alone sent in their Bios. It's just not worth the emotional investment until there about Level 3 and have a chance to survive.

Even if a Level 1 or 2 gets 3-4 higher level players to help do the non repeatable High Hold statics there's just enough xp in them to reach Level 2. After that, it's a very, very long haul to reach Level 3.

The Silvy patrol statics have wildlife that wander across the roads, making a 20xp patrol so not worth the risk as the wolfpacks have more HPs than a 2nd Level toon... each.

So, as a Level 1 or 2, doing the statics that were intended for them, even a group of them are now near impossible without a group of higher level players around to protect them.

If I didn't know any better I'd say the spawns are being bumped and bumped to keep the highest level toons entertained with challenging content while the bulk of the playerbase is likely around Level 1.5 and afraid to go anywhere without higher level players around.

Some suggestions:

1. Use diminishing returns on spawns so the more they get farmed the less xp they give that player until they drop to zero.

2. Cut back on the critters protecting the non-repeatable statics so at least a couple of Level 1s have a good chance of doing them by themselves.

3. Create more mundane repeatable statics based on things like fishing, mining or panning, farming, etc etc... so players can get together and earn some coin and a bit of XP that doesn't involve great risk. Without crafting at least some tradework statics would add some flavor.

Kate

[mishmash]

Maybe an hour once or twice a week of DM attention specifically for new players/ lvl 1 PCs. This would help to maintain interest in new arrivals and if they rp well would go some way towards helping them beat 1st level without having to hang around Rivermoot rping for 500 IG hours.

[Mulu]

All great ideas.

[AcadiusLost]

As one of the people making the updates, fixing bugs, pulling broken content and putting it back in again when it's fixed, I can certainly say the server isn't being "tuned" for higher level characters.

We had one major update a week and a half ago, that had some major problems- it packed many of the wilderness areas with high-CR spawns, even upwards of 60 or 70 per area in some cases. This was not a "retuning", it was a mistake. When we have several buliders all trying to provide content, mistakes and miscommunications will happen. As a short-term solution, all these spawn points were disabled until they could be balanced way down to how they'd been originally intended. Since the spawning system includes significant randomness, it sometimes takes significant testing to get a sense of the range of challenge for even a single area- when you've got 20+ you're trying to fix simultaneously, this becomes compounded. The double-boar spawn was a bug, only one should have spawned. Could be another unpartied PC was trying the quest and chickened out, and the prior boar didn't have a chance to despawn. The bear nearby was random, might be a wise idea to make sure there aren't other hostiles nearby before engaging the boar, that's just good IC sense. If the NPC questgiver's conversation lead you to believe the boar would be a pushover, that can be reworded.

The pendulum of adjustment does swing both ways. From what I've seen, the DM team is not trying to ratchet up the difficulty to match and beat the highest level PC, lower levels be damned. If they were, I certainly wouldn't be working so hard to help support the server, fix the bugs, etc. We've found and addressed bugs with the RPXP system which should help the advancement of those PCs who don't automatically run all the statics. We've added a loot system which does drop sellable items 25% of the time (undead being a notable exception, as they do not traditionally carry gold/valuables). Buyback rates at many merchants approach 50%, much higher than they were in ALFA1.

The Build and DM teams for TSM are not an unassailable wall. They are deeply committed to making the server, and by extension, ALFA, an enjoyable place to play. Constructive feedback on the challenge levels, spawn levels, static questgiver conversations that are misleading, anything of the sort can be helpful in improving the server. Complaining and decrying the server team as unfair, heartless, misguided, etc, most certainly does not help.

If there are specific things that seem off-kilter, it's well worth the time to take a few minutes to politely and respectfully raise them. Often times, they may be due to a bug or other oversight which is easily enough fixed. A few things, like starting at 3rd level, have been discussed ad infinitum already and aren't worth rehashing. More DMs is also a standard request, which the team is well aware of. But feedback on other aspects of the ingame experience is essential in making improvements.