XP and GP and HD, oh my!

[johnlewismcleod]

Great ideas Brokenbone!

I should perhaps clarify, in case there was any misunderstanding: Neither I, nor any DM (other than perhaps Curm) can or should try to solo remedy percieved PC XP/wealth disparities.

What I meant was that I will make an effort, within the bounds of realism, to try to balance XP and GP rewards for my events in the future as per our standards and canon.

And again, thanks to Hollyfant and OGR for the reminder...I needed it

[Mulu]

In my own campaigns I tend to use patrons a lot. So you go see the Professor/Gold Dragon/Secret Order/Reigning Monarch/Rich Eccentric/Whatever and they equip the party with level appropriate gear. It's totally IC, makes much more sense than finding a suit of +1 armor on a dead minotaur, and you can customize the items so the group has an overall theme to their kits and look really cool, like good fantasy RPG artwork.

Seriously, my campaign party looks like fantasy RPG artwork. Their equipment is also perfectly balanced to their level and challenges. Granted, that's in a 100% DM'ed environment, but this takes up a trivial amount of my time in the campaign overall.

I seem to recall that NWN1 Daggerford did something similar. Militia equipment for free for noobs, and some sort of upgrades later.

[HEEGZ]

If anyone is interested, I have checked roughly 10-20 character's wealth levels in the past 2 months. Of those, there is a pretty even distribution of players at average, low, and above average wealth. There was only one PC that was well over the maximum, though it's death a week later solved that problem and I distributed the loot to nearby humanoids. Feel free to contact your local DMs if there is an imbalance (too low or too high). Based on some of the PMs I've received in the past month, there are lots of folks contacting me about various things. Feel free to dialog with the folks who are going to be in-game as well.

[Rotku]

On TSM, about two weeks ago, I did a similar check. Most people were a bit below average (a few extreme cases), but there certainly weren't too many THAT far below.

[Muse]

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[danielmn]

On a slight tangent, I only posted my figures cause Riot was curious how well the smashers and bashers were doing. That in no way reflects my attitude toward wealth at all. I am completely happy with whatever the dms do or don't give, as I am certainly not a wealth based player and my PC isn't a wealth hungry PC. Like riot said, as long as the DM's keep in mind that PC's are a bit lacking in the wealth department before they drop those critters, all is well.

[HEEGZ]

just because there are wealth guidelines; does not mean that you are guaranteed any level of wealth in game.

exactly. they are a guideline. if a PC is extremely low or extremely high, they should contact a DM to see if action should be taken. Almost every PC has been within the range though, and I am 100% confident that ALFA's wealth guidelines are being followed by pretty much everyone. The only possible issue is that some PCs level much faster than they gain gold or loot, so they are going to be more likely to be on the lower end of the scale.

[danielmn]

The other issue than leveling fast is that wizards have a black hole that sucks money into it called a spellbook. I would expect wizards to be the least wealthy among PC's at lower levels because of this fact, but imagine that would slowly take an upward shift at higher levels, especially if they invest in creation feats.

Daniel

[Rotku]

Also a lot of the wizards are members of the University, so course fees is another cost on top of spellbooks.

[danielmn]

Not sure, but I believe coarse costs cover some scrolls given upon completion, but those costs may indeed be higher than the scrollcost.

[AcadiusLost]

University coursework for wizards varies a bit in XP/GP relationship; rewards tend to be in the form of scrolls, which have an equivalent GP value comparable to that of the course registration. These only tend to "show up" in terms of net worth when the rewards turn out to be spells the PC already knows (mine ended up with 3 extra scrolls of Color Spray, for example, since the options for 1st level illusion spells were quite limited). On the other hand, though, successful completion of the course may often require further investment in one or more additional scrolls in order to pass the class. Generally, the problematic "spend GP, but gain XP" relationship holds true through these statics, though the extent of this varies.

The question of "spellbook value" is a significant one when considering net worth of a wizard PC though. There is presently no way to know, as a DM, whether a given wizard PC knows every available spell available in the game (as the result of massive GP investment in scrolls), or just the 2/level gained at level-up. The former is certainly more powerful overall, and far more capable of dealing with both static/scripted and DM'ed challenges. I would argue that the "effective value" towards net worth for spells in the spellbook ought to be somewhere below single-scroll pricing, as it reflects potential capacity (if the PC has time to prepare obscure spell X) as compared to on-demand utility (scroll on standby for whenever). It may actually be possible at some point to calculate and store an effective worth of a spellbook based on all potentially available spells, but we've not developed that yet.

For now, perhaps a rough rule of thumb is to treat "standards-average-wealth" wizards as "above average wealth" with regards to GP reward planning, as whatever wealth you "see" via DM wands/DMFI scripts is in addition to whatever they've invested in building their spellbooks. It's harder to judge "Below Average" wealth wizard PCs, though, presently. That "dirt poor" mage could have just spent the equivalent of Fullplate +1 (2650 gp) on buying seven 3rd-level spellscrolls that disappeared straight into the spellbook. The same amount would only pay for three 4th level spells, so it scales quite dramatically. Tradescrolls allow much cheaper acquisition of spells, especially at higher levels (50, 75, 100 gp for 2nd, 3rd, 4th level spells), but those rely on finding another willing PC who has already invested in the spell in question.

[Runestaff]

The question of "spellbook value" is a significant one when considering net worth of a wizard PC though. There is presently no way to know, as a DM, whether a given wizard PC knows every available spell available in the game ... <snip>

For now, perhaps a rough rule of thumb is to treat "standards-average-wealth" wizards as "above average wealth" with regards to GP reward planning

That seems like a pretty big nerf if this rule becomes official, as you're effectively arguing that class powers should be factored into wealth considerations. Indeed, this is particularly brutal on wizards since spells are their only means of survival for all intents and purposes. If, on top of that, they are subject to reduced access to equipment due to lower wealth awards ...

Consider that cleric PCs do have access to all spells of a given level, and don't have to pay anything monetarily for them (plus getting access to domains, heavy armor, etc.) and it would be easy to make a case that they and every spellcasting class should be subject to the same guideline. Should fighters then be judged somehow based on what bonus feats they select?

I'll give you credit for good intentions, but this seems like a bad idea in practice.

[danielmn]

Yeah, it's kind of a vortex when it comes to wizards. My intent was to express WHY a wizard would most likely be the lowest wealthed class per level, I'm really not sure how I feel about their spellbooks being included in counting wealth, since that is a class ability really. On the other hand....a mage pays 2650 for spells for his spellbook, while a fighter pays for full plate +1 with the same amount of coin. One could argue both purchases are unique to their respective classes....but if the spellbook doesn't get included in wealth considerations, the wizard earns another 2650 to bring them in line with the wealth standards while the fighter gets....nothing. Which I personally don't have a problem with myself. I would rather the spellbook not be included I think.

[oldgrayrogue]

I certainly never meant to suggest that anyone is entitled to wealth at the guidelines. I simply assume that the guideline is representative of the type of wealth level a PC could expect to be at, through static and DM content, at a given level. Once PC's reach a certain progression where there is no further static content besides 1) spawns or 2) repeatable static quests that may or not make sense to do IC, they have few options to earn wealth beyond DM rewards. From personal experience I felt this resulted in PCs being below average wealth -- unless they spend a lot of time on 1) and 2) above. Its just an observation, and a suggestion to DMs to consider wealth or item rewards as an alternative to XP. Its IC, it adds spice and variety through new item acquisition, and can even further plots.

[fluffmonster]

If a spellbook was found as adventure loot, it would have some value. SRD says 50gp per page, so a full spellbook of 100 pages would be 5000gp. Spells are 1 page per spell level, so a 4th level spell would be valued at 200gp for example.

I'd start down some road like that. Of course, any serious investigation would have to open up the PC to know what's in the spellbook.