Deity Invocation in Divine Spells

[FanaticusIncendi]

Do priests invoke their deity's name when casting any spell, or just when turning undead?

[hollyfant]

Neither. They do have to present their deity's symbol when turning undead, but that's all.

[psycho_leo]

Once there was a long discussion on that and secretive clerics. Can't find it now, but recall lots of talk about bluff ranks, hidden holy symbols and whatnot. Net result of that was basically that it was possible to cast spells and not scream your deity's name at the top of your lungs, though some (like say, Bane) would smite you if you don't. But I've never seen any rules regarding that, other than what holly mentioned about turning undead.

[Zelknolf]

Spells that have a holy symbol as a divine focus (doesn't include the spontaneous casting stuffs, but it does include most of the utility spells. Divine Focus for mending, light, darkness, etc.) require that the character be physically holding the symbol and that it be free to be manipulated during the casting. Creativity could keep it concealed here, but I'd say yer most likely grating a big block of stinky cheese if still spell isn't involved in symbol-hiding.

And +1 to Holly. That's the most obvious way to find a cleric's patron if you think they're B.S.ing.

[Brokenbone]

The "rulesy" stuff is all here: http://www.alandfaraway.org/forums/view ... 11&t=35124

Basically it was a pointless house rules debate.

The "lore" though was limited to a couple of Ed Greenwood "Ask Ed" Candlekeep posts. While it was about Mask & Bane in particular, a bit about other sneaks like Leira came up. Something I think we all missed in the House rules thread is that FR's creator comes down firmly that Deity names do get used, for "powerful" spells, where there's a verbal component. Later he mentions 2nd level spells, I do not know if that's meant to be the same term as "powerful"... still, everything's relative, right? A cure light wounds that does 1d8+2 healing is a friggin' miracle to a peasant who gets his leg crushed under a wagon wheel. Still, the lore got glossed over since no one could find a rule in the SRD or elsewhere on point.

RE: BANE

January 31, 2006: Hi again, everyone. This time, Ed steps up once more to matters godly, to make reply to this, from Skeptic: "First, according to the flavor of the Realms (and not the current editions rules) must a cleric include the name of his deity in the "verbal component" of his spells? If yes, can he use a more obscure alias? Second, when a spell mentions that the cleric must show his deity's symbol, can this symbol be disguised as a mundane item or even as another deity symbol ? (Of course in respect of the deity's dogma!) These questions come from the cleric of Bane in my current campaign who doesn't like to live in Waterdeep. (The party forced him to add a "illusion" effect on his full plate carved with his deity symbol.)"

Ed replies:

Many lesser spells don't require that the deity be mentioned by name; the incants are prayers or prayer fragments that don't happen to include the name of the deity. For most more powerful clerical spells having a verbal component, the deity IS called upon by name, and although the priest can in many cases use aliases without ruining the spell, few of those that apply to Bane, the relevant deity here, are truly going to be "obscure" to most folk in the Realms (remember: every human in the Realms knows of, and believes in, the same gods, albiet with some local name differences, rather than cleaving to a single deity, so the PC priest you mention CAN'T hide what he's doing effectively from people in Waterdeep). And no, he CAN'T disguise his holy symbol and still have the spell work, if it's a spell above 2nd level. Bane expects him to publicly bear witness to his faith, so as to impress (or cow) others. Bane is the god of tyranny, remember?

Yes, that can lead to problems. Which is why so many priests of evil deities cast spells indoors, at night, in cellars or other hidden places. If they don't want their activities to be traced to their homes, they often rent a room in a bad inn or upstairs room at a Dock Ward tavern, or even take a room at a good festhall, send the pleasure-lass out, bar the door behind her, and get to work.

Of course, being a priest of Bane, he might just harshly order the pleasure-lass around, and then tie her down, blindfold her, and cast his spells (if doing so isn't going to impart names and information to her that she can specifically report to the Watch for, later, and incriminate him) while she cowers, wondering if she's going to be sacrificed or molested, so he can please Bane with her fear and his tyranny.

And yes, such deeds can indeed lead to other problems. Playing a priest in the Realms often shouldn't be easy.

So saith Ed.

RE: MASK & LEIRA

Mask loves deceit, but loves himself and the power of his enhanced reputation even more. Mask wants mortals to fear and respect him, and so wants his clergy to use his holy symbol in their spells (though, as it's a mask, a sly priest can often downplay what he's doing, wearing the mask and just pulling it down to his lips to kiss as the incantation begins, putting it back up into place on his face as the casting continues). Many priests of Mask try to do all of their "formal" castings and devotions by night in concealment (secret cellars or other spaces reached by concealed or secret ways are most favoured, but rooftops will do if nothing else is available).

Leira, on the other hand, prizes deception, so any holy symbol could be used as long as it contained a real holy symbol of Leira (the smoky-mist triangular plaque), of any size (yes, tiny would do; some clergy glued such symbols to their fingernails and covered them with bandages or gloves, revealing them only during castings). For the spells to work, such concealed holy symbols had to be consecrated to the goddess in prayer, touched by the user's spittle or tears or blood, and put into direct contact with the user's skin for at least two continuous days and nights (most priests made several at once, taped them to their bare bodies, and then went to sleep, in seclusion [a hermitage vigil or retreat], lying still and praying whenever awake, for the requisite time).

Spellcasting constructions were even created and practiced by Leiran clergy that purported to be one spell, calling on another god, when they were really a different spell, calling on Leira: there were "empty" or false words mixed with "true phrases" (not something that would fool a priest familiar with either the real spell or the spell it purported to be, or a priest of the god falsely invoked, but most "average mortals" would be fooled or misled).

Points gleaned from the above:
- apparently must use Deity names when it's powerful and verbal? Unclear when something's powerful.
- apparently must use Deity symbol (presumably in a divine focus spell) over 2nd level? (This should apply to 0th-1st too though, no?)
- apparently the invoking of a Deity name can be amongst a bunch of gobbledeygook wording (empty & true phrases)
- this gobbledeygook casting is NOT something that would fool priests who are familiar with the relevant spell (perhaps have cast it or are capable of casting it or have seen it cast) nor priests who adhere to the gods who were invoked in vain (I guess even those who are unfamiliar with the spell per the above, which was a low threshold to begin with)

While the House Rules thread meandered all over the place, including some well laid out scenarios of who should be fooled when, it's the Leira bits especially that seem to create a bunch of "fraudproof" scenarios for cleric witnesses.

Again though, this is just Greenwood type lore, not something that made it into the rulebooks. I play by it, but haven't been forced to DM by it, nor have I forced DMs to DM by it as well (though I've made my share of requests to fraud-detect when a priest of "someone else" is trying to pass himself off as a priest of my PC's patron, all handled ad hoc and fine enough by me).

[Zelknolf]

Well, I think that first example has a lot to do with the patron. If you've got a priest of Bane who lacks balls so heinously as to refuse to show a holy symbol, he really doesn't deserve to be a priest of Bane in the first place. (note the quote following the redded space: "Bane expects him to publicly bear witness to his faith, so as to impress (or cow) others." -- used to explain the previous statement.)

I get the feeling that this thread was started with questions about a more discreet faith, like Shar or Mask or something, where it would be part of the dogma and part of the religion to be sneaky, and where it would be possible and acceptable to hide the nature of one's faith; the question, I think, would be what lengths those priests/priestesses would have to go to in order to successfully hide the faith. (a silent, still spell with a sleight of hand check for anything over 2nd? It seems like a pretty harsh penalty, making divine focus spells be cast 2 levels higher and non-divine-focus spells be cast 1 level higher, unless there was some sort of knowledge (religion) check involved in identifying deities -- DC 5 for the crazy ubers like Shar, Selune, and Mystra; 10 for the other greaters; 15 for intermediates; 20 for lessers; 25 for demi, maybe? That would, at least, make casting spells at their full potency not a shoein for getting caught, but a risky proposition.)

[JaydeMoon]

But, Clerics can cast with hands full of weapon and shield!!!

[danielmn]

*points above*

I SEEN EM!!

[Zelknolf]

Not possible in PnP! Gotta have a free hand to cast spells with somatic components. (and it actually makes quick draw one helluva feat for a front line cleric.)

Hell, PnP makes you wield your wands, too! (imagine that!)

[danielmn]

I've got a tricked out magic stick that will make them all fall! - Flaming Lips

[Brokenbone]

Not possible in PnP! Gotta have a free hand to cast spells with somatic components. (and it actually makes quick draw one helluva feat for a front line cleric.)

Hell, PnP makes you wield your wands, too! (imagine that!)

I think somewhere in a WOTC Q&A thread, it gets reviewed that light shields are okay as a "hand free" thing, heavies are not. Otherwise with two full hands though, you're stuck in a "drop-cast-draw" routine of getting rid of, and re-readying, whatever you need. A good idea to carry around backup weapons, then, to quickly draw.

Also though, there's feats like this:

Somatic Weaponry
Type: General
Source: Complete Mage

You are adept at performing somatic spell components while your hands are occupied.

Prerequisite: Concentration 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks.
Benefit: When wielding a weapon (or holding an item of comparable size) in one or both hands, you can use that item to trace the somatic component of a spell, rather than using your fingers. This allows you to cast spells with somatic components even while your hands are full or occupied, as long as at least one hand is holding an item of proper size.
This feat doesn't allow you to use somatic components while grappling, regardless of the size of your foe.
Normal: You must have a hand free to cast spells that have somatic components.

Anyhow, drifting off the deity thing I guess. Reminds me though, in one of the Sembia novels, "Sands of the Soul" or similar, there's a priest of Shar antagonist for the novel, who seems to be good at keeping his secrets, think he had a subtle holy symbol, not doing much "public" casting except in his lair, will need to look that up again. Still, across novels, there's presumably for dramatic effect a tip of the hat to deities by name, for when clerics are doing their thing. Again, a "good characterization" type of thing as opposed to tracing back to any given rule in the SRD or elsewhere, maybe.

[dergon darkhelm]

First, so long as ALFA admin teams can come to agreement on a system that is the same across the board, that's great. But you have to give PCs the knowledge of the system up front.

So, alreay live, with dozens of current PCs, and perhaps a few that might be significantly affected by the question of divine foci or deity invocation, I say this:

Make a rule.


I was the one who stirred the pot on this issue back in NWN1 when my Sharran Cleric, who had openly portrayed himself as Waukeenar for RL years by casting spells openly in the name of Waukeen while adventuring. This worked fine and was never questioned on TLR/DF/WD/TSM.

The "house rules" side of it came when the divine focus was in implementation on another server, where it was deemed that the mechanics of a PC concept I had been playing for years was no longer acceptable, requiring some manner of the spell casting techniques named above.


The best thing we can do as a community is settle this for once and for all, applicable to all servers present, planned and future.

[JaydeMoon]

Make a rule!

You're funny.

"In ALFA, Clerics need not make any announcement of faith when casting spells. Unless your concept is Dergon's and forcing such an announcement completely alters the concept and mood of the PC he's been playing for at least 6 months."

ADMIN VOTE YES NAU!!!

[hollyfant]

An additional complication is that some holy symbols are actually pictures, while others are objects. If you paint a hot redhead on the inside of your shield, wouldn't that make the whole thing a holy symbol of Sune?

[Zelknolf]

An additional complication is that some holy symbols are actually pictures, while others are objects. If you paint a hot redhead on the inside of your shield, wouldn't that make the whole thing a holy symbol of Sune?

No. The picture is.

Paint it on the outside of the shield, njub.