Canon grounds for Warlocks in FR?

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:10 pm

I've been discussing this in one of the NWN2 forums, but the majority of the discussion there is balance-related.

I'm curious to know what, if any, examples of warlocks have been cropping up in FR canon, and if it is generally seen as a reasonable adventuring class for a strict-RP world like ALFA. Is it another "They were there all along, do not ask questions" thing, like when sorcerers appeared as a class? Someone mentioned a reference for a FR tiefling fighter/warlock, whose warlock powers were pretty minor, I think?

Since Warlocks gain their power from pacts or bloodlines with demons, are they subject to terms of these arrangements? Could they be expected to be held to oaths and such? I'd thought contractual agreements were more the realm of Devils than Demons, so I'm interested to hear thoughts on them from a RP/sourcebook/canon perspective, or at least musings as to how non-FR material on them (Complete Arcane?) might mesh with existing FR canon. Would they tend to be faithless? How would they be viewed by the churches of Mystra, Azuth, Talos, or Shar? Would they be rarer than sorcerii, or more common?

Blackwill · Post by **Blackwill** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:22 pm

Good question. This should be relaid to Candlekeep boards. I'm sure people there would have some input too. I'd be happy to relay your question if you don't have an account.

Spider Jones · Post by **Spider Jones** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:29 pm

I've never seen a warlock NPC in any Realms sourcebooks or novels. The person who mentioned a tiefling fighter/warlock might be thinking of the tiefling ranger/psion from the Erevis Cale trilogy.

As far as how I've run the Realms, I allow Warlocks as a PC class, though, none of my players have played one yet.

From Complete Arcane:

Many warlocks are champions of dark and chaotic powers. Long ago, they (or in some cases, their ancestors) forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading portions of their souls in exchange for supernatural power. While many warlocks have turned away from evil, seeking to undo the wrongs of their former colleagues, they are still chained by the old pacts through which they acquired their powers. The demand to further the designs of their dark patrons, or to resist them, drives most warlocks to seek opportunities for power, wealth, and great deeds (for good or ill) offered by adventuring.

AcadiusLost · Post by **AcadiusLost** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:47 pm

I don't have a candlekeep account, but I'd be interested to hear Greenwood or other FR experts' take on the class, especially as it seems they are a shoe-in to ALFA. I'd like at least to try to get a handle on how they should be viewed by the larger world: peasantry, scholars, etc.

Would they be subject to the whims of their patron, in the same way that clerics may be should they act out of line with their dieties' dogma? Are their souls taken by their patrons on death, and if so, does it affect their ability to take a rez?

Since their patrons are by description chaotic, does that mean they do not know or care how the powers are used? If the powers are bargained for, what does the demon gain in return, as motivation/justification?

I've heard it mentioned that they can be counterspelled, and lose abilities in a magic-dead zone, so are their eldrich abilities necessarily Weave magic? Do repeated uses of their powers exhaust them in any way, or are they to be considered effortless, as well as limitless?

Does SR resist Eldritch bolts and effects?

[edit: The concept of a warlock who uses their powers to thwart the Outsider by whom they were granted raises interesting issues as well- can the bount patron remove/withhold the warlock's abilities? What happens when/if the Outsider who granted the abilities is killed? ]

Leareth · Post by **Leareth** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:27 pm

AcadiusLost wrote:I don't have a candlekeep account, but I'd be interested to hear Greenwood or other FR experts' take on the class, especially as it seems they are a shoe-in to ALFA. I'd like at least to try to get a handle on how they should be viewed by the larger world: peasantry, scholars, etc.

Would they be subject to the whims of their patron, in the same way that clerics may be should they act out of line with their dieties' dogma? Are their souls taken by their patrons on death, and if so, does it affect their ability to take a rez?

My impression is that they are not subject to whims of thier patron. Thier power is a bit closer to the power of a sorcer or bard then the power of a cleric in that it is inborn not granted.

AcadiusLost wrote: Since their patrons are by description chaotic, does that mean they do not know or care how the powers are used? If the powers are bargained for, what does the demon gain in return, as motivation/justification?

As for that, well it's hard to say. It could be something a simple as an agent that would be hard to detect or just another corupted soul to cause chaos. It's pretty much up to the patron and the bargener. Also the warlock might not be the issuer of the bargin. It could have been in the past and the powers have been passed down through the generations.

AcadiusLost wrote: I've heard it mentioned that they can be counterspelled, and lose abilities in a magic-dead zone, so are their eldrich abilities necessarily Weave magic? Do repeated uses of their powers exhaust them in any way, or are they to be considered effortless, as well as limitless?

Thier bolts are weave magic so are subject to the same restrictions so can be dispelled, disrupted and countered as far as I know. It does take effort (hence they are vulnarable to all the problems of casting that arcane and divine casters have attacks of ops when casting or concentration checks if threatened), but in no way are they limited in the number of bolts or spells they can cast in a day.

AcadiusLost wrote: Does SR resist Eldritch bolts and effects?

SR works just fine against thier bolts.

AcadiusLost wrote: [edit: The concept of a warlock who uses their powers to thwart the Outsider by whom they were granted raises interesting issues as well- can the bount patron remove/withhold the warlock's abilities? What happens when/if the Outsider who granted the abilities is killed? ]

The patron cannot remove these powers as now they are inborn. Though in theory if the taint of the patron is removed they can be striped away but would require high divine magic if I'm to understand.

Joos · Post by **Joos** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:49 pm

Would they be subject to the whims of their patron, in the same way that clerics may be should they act out of line with their dieties' dogma? Are their souls taken by their patrons on death, and if so, does it affect their ability to take a rez?

Since most deamons and devils don't have direct access to the prime material plane (summons, gates and bindings needed) I wouldnt think the powers of the warlock would be tied to a balors will. If the balor is powerful enough, say, a demigod, the demon would be able to support clerics.
However, the pact gifts the warlock with demonicly suffused blood, just like the sorceror, giving him access to arcane magic, which would also go against this argument that he would be under constant scrutiny of a "supervisor".
In regards to their rez, I don't think this would matter at all. Warlocks would still have a Patron deity if they ar esmart and would fall under the same rules as any other PC with or without a patron. Ie, god would be unwilling to grant a resurrection to someone of opposing faith unless there as a good reason.

Since their patrons are by description chaotic, does that mean they do not know or care how the powers are used? If the powers are bargained for, what does the demon gain in return, as motivation/justification?

I would argue that their beneficor when it comes to magic powers granted are not their patrons. I would look at it as taking a mortgage.

I've heard it mentioned that they can be counterspelled, and lose abilities in a magic-dead zone, so are their eldrich abilities necessarily Weave magic? Do repeated uses of their powers exhaust them in any way, or are they to be considered effortless, as well as limitless?

Does SR resist Eldritch bolts and effects?

I am speaking out of my mind here, but yes, unless they get access to their abilities of Shar herself, they would be dependant on the weave and would fall under the same restrictions when it comes to their powers effects as their arcane cousins, sorcerors.

The concept of a warlock who uses their powers to thwart the Outsider by whom they were granted raises interesting issues as well- can the bount patron remove/withhold the warlock's abilities? What happens when/if the Outsider who granted the abilities is killed?

I wouldnt think it be possible for the outsider to withdraw their powers at will since the power is bound to their blood. However, depending how the contract between the outsider and the warlock, it may be difficult for the warlock to take direct action against the outsider and he would most propably have to do this indirectly through other agents.

Since its the warlocks blood that is suffused with magic properties of the outsider, I wouldnt think it would change anything if the originator of the power dies. I would think transfusion would be the only way to remove the warlocks powers. However, this might only be a temporary thing since the demonic taint may well have altered the marrow and the spirit of the warlock, thus tainting the new blood over time.

EDIT: I also agree with most of what Leareth writes in the post above.

Leareth · Post by **Leareth** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:01 pm

Removing the powers is speculative I agree but the powers are inherited one way or another even if the person never chooses to use them. I guess once you make a deal with a devil (or deamon) even your decendents will feel it's mark.

Leareth

Blackwill · Post by **Blackwill** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:06 pm

Relaid your question here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... ichpage=70

Blackwill · Post by **Blackwill** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:37 am

Here's some official reply by Eytan Bernstein, Forgotten Realms designer.

Eytan Bernstein wrote:The only reference to warlocks in existing books is a single one I made in Dragons of Faerun. It's a quote by Pherix Traeleth, Master Warlock of the Sildeyuir. I left it suitably vague so people can introduce the class (or not introduce it) at their leisure. With increasing requests for this sort of thing, there may be some more references and information forthcoming on other classes, though what or where I cannot say.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:48 pm

What do you guys think about making a ruling that Warlocks are worshipers of arch-fiends, Slaadi lords, or [insert some fey power here]? Basically a "cleric" of those powers, but they aren't deities really, so their gifts are far different. F&P says that arch-fiends can grant spells in return for sacrifices, but doesn't say much more.

This could be a house rule, and would probably make warlocks very rare (who is going to admit to worshiping an arch-fiend?). It would also put a face on the origin of their powers, instead of some nameless devil.

darrenhfx · Post by **darrenhfx** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:54 pm

I like that interpretation Ronan.

How would that effect being a player class though? Smart warlocks lead people to believe that they are sorcs? Maybe in certain locales they would be welcome and in others not... much the same as many races and classes are already throughout Faerun.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:03 pm

Rather than straight worship it might be easier to require that the PC be the signatory of the pact rather than the descendent or unwilling inheritor of one. This would keep warlocks unique, classic devil's deal sort of thing and distinct from active worshipers of evil. Under a pact the PC would not neccessarily have to be devout or in constant direct service but would have certain obligations that would need to be fulfilled. For example if the pact requires the murder of an innocent person each year the PC would have to do so or lose the powers. They would be free to act normally at alll other times but would be bound in certain circumstances. This would also serve to differentiate the mfrom clerics and allow the internal struggle that is inherent to the class.

Mikayla · Post by **Mikayla** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:05 pm

Ronan:

What do you guys think about making a ruling that Warlocks are worshipers of arch-fiends, Slaadi lords, or [insert some fey power here]? Basically a "cleric" of those powers, but they aren't deities really, so their gifts are far different. F&P says that arch-fiends can grant spells in return for sacrifices, but doesn't say much more.

This could be a house rule, and would probably make warlocks very rare (who is going to admit to worshiping an arch-fiend?). It would also put a face on the origin of their powers, instead of some nameless devil.

Its not necessary. No more necessary than figuring out exactly which dragon is the ancestor of any given sorceror. I fail to see the need to make up house rules to limit a class that, as we have discussed in detail, presents little to no balance issues in its current incarnation. This seems to be a case of fixing something that isn't broken.

Ronan · Post by **Ronan** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:24 pm

Mikayla wrote:Its not necessary. No more necessary than figuring out exactly which dragon is the ancestor of any given sorceror. I fail to see the need to make up house rules to limit a class that, as we have discussed in detail, presents little to no balance issues in its current incarnation. This seems to be a case of fixing something that isn't broken.

It is necissary because all dragons (baring gem dragons) have sorcerous powers. Not any outsider can replace a portion of someone's soul with magical powers, which is what happens to a Warlock. And any PC that makes a bargain with an outsider for magic is probably going to know at least something about it.

In any case, Complete Mage actually presents examples of exactly what I stated, naming some arch demons and devils which can grant warlocky powers. They don't name any fey powers by name, though we do have the names of slaadi powers from other sources of canon. It doesn't really limit the class at all, any more than saying "wizards use the weave". It just defines a source of their abilities.

We just don't need PC Warlocks running about saying they got their powers from a quasit or a nymph or something.

Nyarlathotep · Post by **Nyarlathotep** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:30 pm

Well sorcerers don't necessarily have to be descended from dragons, thats just one possible origin. There can't be that many lizard fetishists out there.

The issue with the pact is (not positive don't have it in front of me) is that it can be made by someone in the PCs past and not necessarily by the PC himself, something like a blackguard making a pact that effects the 7th son of the 7th son of all his descendents or some such.